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I've been thinking about this comment for a few minutes and do find it interesting. But the extremes of the comments and quotes above make it clear that even di

I've been thinking about this comment for a few minutes and do find it interesting. But the extremes of the comments and quotes above make it clear that even displaying your product is an ad; demonstrating how it works to a crowd would be an ad; telling someone that it exists would be an ad; there seems to be no way to tell the market that your product exists without that being defined as an ad. So I would answer you with, given the extremes defined above, that indeed advertising is a necessity since good products would otherwise rot inside the inventor's home. It being illegal (say, for example) to have ads would mean that it is illegal to even tell anyone that you invented a product. I think there's got to be some kind of give from the anti-ad side if we want to have _things_ in the world that do stuff - because if I can't even say "I made a better product that does x,y,z" then how the heck is anyone ever gonna find out about it? Where does the word-of-mouth kick off even? You gotta _tell_ people you made something - but that's an ad.

gAI 3y ago
So I've been producing ads for a couple of decades, and I agree that they're basically psychological warfare. I justify it to myself because I usually get to make ads for products that help people, but the war over mindshare is absolutely depraved. That said, there does need to be a place for people to access information about products and services. I'd just prefer it be a place that people go to intentionally learn about products and services, rather than something ingrained in every aspect of modern life.
- roenxi 3y ago
  So I suppose where you are coming from is that you're using dirty tricks to convince people who don't need a product to buy it. Which is not ideal. But I've seen a lot of software engineers write code that is unreliable and causes their users a lot of suffering. Most people do a bit of harm on the margins because their job is part of messy reality instead of some imaginary pure world. On average the amount of trickery in advertising will cancel out and decisions still get made based on the quality and usefulness of the products. It is just much easier to sell something useful with sneaky advertising than selling advertising in a vacuum. People not knowing about their options is one of the bigger problems in modern life. There are a lot of things I'd spend money on to change and I'm just not sure how to do it. As far as I can tell that is normal. "I'd just prefer it be a place that people go to intentionally learn about products and services" - when I see people doing that I'll believe it is an option. Most people sit there until told to do something. Even when doing the thing is in their own interests.
  - gAI 3y ago
    It's not so much about any particular ad or product, but the attention that ads steal. Most peoples' heads are FULL of ad jingles they never wanted there.
  - polygamous_bat 3y ago
    > On average the amount of trickery in advertising will cancel out and decisions still get made based on the quality and usefulness of the products. How? Take the examples from above about selling beauty products to teenagers, where is the ad saying "you're perfect as you are, no need to drop hundreds of dollars on any of this bullshit"? All the ads in existence will try to extract money from them by playing up body image issues, so the noise WILL NOT cancel out on their own. > Most people sit there until told to do something. Even when doing the thing is in their own interests. To think that you know what's better for people than they know for themselves... Tell me, are you an advertising professional? Because your thought process is just as obnoxious.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      > To think that you know what's better for people than they know for themselves... Easy mistake, I suppose. But if you read closely, you'll notice that isn't what I said or implied. People often know what is in their own best interests, they just don't act on it. Consider, for example, how hard it is for most people to get to the gym even after taking out gym membership. I had a running buddy once solely because the gentleman knew he wouldn't go running unless he had someone else to remind him. People usually need a little push before they do the sensible thing. That is one of the things advertisers tap in to and why they are so valuable to a business.
      - Jochim 3y ago
        Advertisers never push people to do the sensible thing though. There's a reason that "vice" advertising has so much money poured into it. The gym advertising its memberships would rather you never set foot on their premises. Beauty products want you to feel good about yourself, but only while you're wearing their products. McDonalds and Coca Cola do not want you to eat healthier, or enjoy their products only occasionally. It's actually shocking to see someone frame advertisers as pushing people towards making good decisions for themselves, when we've had to explicitly ban tobacco companies from advertising how sexy and popular smoking would make you.
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >So I've been producing ads for a couple of decades, and I agree that they're basically psychological warfare. I justify it to myself because I usually get to make ads for products that help people, but the war over mindshare is absolutely depraved. That said, there does need to be a place for people to access information about products and services. I'd just prefer it be a place that people go to intentionally learn about products and services, rather than something ingrained in every aspect of modern life. I spent a number of years doing market research for advertising, and I couldn't agree more. Data analysis is primarily focused on increasing "top of mind" and "unaided" awareness and linking positively-perceived properties and emotions to the product being flogged. I got out before "social media" convinced everyone to share everything about their lives with advertisers and their enablers, but back in the day, ad agencies and the marketing departments of large consumer product companies each spend millions every year (cf. BSB Global Scan[0] as an example) collecting a tiny subset of that data. Given the enormous amount of data available today, I imagine that the levels of manipulation have increased exponentially. And more's the pity. [0] https://www.proquest.com/openview/46f87cae3614d373064294a43b922c1b/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=31079 https://www.proquest.com/openview/46f87cae3614d373064294a43b...
prox 3y ago
One of my clients make really good products. I would say the best you can get (this is a mobility product) It has ergonomic properties that blows away any competition, and build quality is second to none. However, it’s expensive. It has been a really tough uphill climb to connect to our audience and convince them the money is worth it here. In a market with marked up shitty quality products it has been a journey to position ourselves, especially since our budgets are maybe 1/10th of that of aforementioned shitty producers who outmarket us. I honestly feel the work I am doing is near to a community service. Although still advertising our ads are honest of what the products can do.
_aavaa_ 3y ago
> You gotta _tell_ people you made something. I think that the rest of your discussion hinges on this assumption, and I completely disagree with it. What you need actually is for people to know that your product exist. People have needs & problem beyond the fake ones created by advertising. People can _ask_ for what options exist to solve their problem. And that to me is fundamentally different. Having a way for consumers to go out and pull information in about what options exist is fundamentally different from having advertising shoved down their throat.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > People need can _ask_ for what options exist to solve their problem. Where do you propose people ask? Who would fulfill those queries? What formats would you allow the information to be expressed in? Would you filter out any non-objective characterization (“best car in the world”)? Would you constrain packaging (eg color, creativity, etc.) so that it isn’t attention-grabbing? Etc.
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    I’m not sure how it would all work out. But let’s start where we are now with search engines. Remove the ads and make people pay to use them beyond some number of queries a month. This alone gets rid of the problem of the platform intentionally shoving ads down your throat. Find a shitty website that SEO’d it’s way to the top and got through the cat and mouse game? Then allow people to blacklist websites so they stop appearing in results. Then as the provider investigate and downrank sites that people downrank and block often. Maybe also preferentially treat companies that don’t load their own sites with other people’s ads and tracking scripts. Oh and tell the user how many of those trackers exist on the site. This obviously don’t solve the problem of companies pushing ads onto you. But it: 1. Sets up your information provider to not be the biggest and worse ad pusher of them all. 2. It gives people the tools to start penalizing bad content and ads and to outright block them from their results. This alone, I strongly believe, would be a great improvement.
    - eszed 3y ago
Intermernet 3y ago
I recently bought a ski touring pack. It's almost certainly the best pack money can buy. The guy who made it has a waiting list and seems to be happy with his life. He doesn't advertise at all. If you find him, you move in the circles that mean that you want a high quality ski touring pack, and word of mouth will eventually reach you. If you really care about this category of product you can find him. The pack is competitive in price with anything else on the market of similar features and quality. It's not really a "luxury" or "boutique" product. This is an example of how businesses and customers can be perfectly happy without any advertising. It's not the only example, just the first that came to mind.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  I know a Polish guy that makes sleeping bags along much the same model. Best sleeping bags that you can find. He's got a waiting list longer than a year now and people don't mind. Never a single ad, just word of mouth. And no, it doesn't scale but he couldn't care less.
  - shinryuu 3y ago
    Now you've got to tell me where to find him!
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      For a small fee...
salawat 3y ago
Wanna know how to tell people you did something? Put up a non-intrusive entry in a directory that people would use to reach out to you. Let them come to you. Stop hounding people to be the repeatedly ground in impression by repetition. So much time is wasted today... When I think of all the broadcasting/transmission medium throughput that's eaten up by carrying unsolicited advertisements to people that could either A) be left unused, or used to provide better performance for everyone, or B) utilized for, heaven forbid, the public calling out for proposals from service providers!

gAI 3y ago

So I've been producing ads for a couple of decades, and I agree that they're basically psychological warfare. I justify it to myself because I usually get to make ads for products that help people, but the war over mindshare is absolutely depraved. That said, there does need to be a place for people to access information about products and services. I'd just prefer it be a place that people go to intentionally learn about products and services, rather than something ingrained in every aspect of modern life.

roenxi 3y ago
So I suppose where you are coming from is that you're using dirty tricks to convince people who don't need a product to buy it. Which is not ideal. But I've seen a lot of software engineers write code that is unreliable and causes their users a lot of suffering. Most people do a bit of harm on the margins because their job is part of messy reality instead of some imaginary pure world. On average the amount of trickery in advertising will cancel out and decisions still get made based on the quality and usefulness of the products. It is just much easier to sell something useful with sneaky advertising than selling advertising in a vacuum. People not knowing about their options is one of the bigger problems in modern life. There are a lot of things I'd spend money on to change and I'm just not sure how to do it. As far as I can tell that is normal. "I'd just prefer it be a place that people go to intentionally learn about products and services" - when I see people doing that I'll believe it is an option. Most people sit there until told to do something. Even when doing the thing is in their own interests.
- gAI 3y ago
  It's not so much about any particular ad or product, but the attention that ads steal. Most peoples' heads are FULL of ad jingles they never wanted there.
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  > On average the amount of trickery in advertising will cancel out and decisions still get made based on the quality and usefulness of the products. How? Take the examples from above about selling beauty products to teenagers, where is the ad saying "you're perfect as you are, no need to drop hundreds of dollars on any of this bullshit"? All the ads in existence will try to extract money from them by playing up body image issues, so the noise WILL NOT cancel out on their own. > Most people sit there until told to do something. Even when doing the thing is in their own interests. To think that you know what's better for people than they know for themselves... Tell me, are you an advertising professional? Because your thought process is just as obnoxious.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    > To think that you know what's better for people than they know for themselves... Easy mistake, I suppose. But if you read closely, you'll notice that isn't what I said or implied. People often know what is in their own best interests, they just don't act on it. Consider, for example, how hard it is for most people to get to the gym even after taking out gym membership. I had a running buddy once solely because the gentleman knew he wouldn't go running unless he had someone else to remind him. People usually need a little push before they do the sensible thing. That is one of the things advertisers tap in to and why they are so valuable to a business.
    - Jochim 3y ago
      Advertisers never push people to do the sensible thing though. There's a reason that "vice" advertising has so much money poured into it. The gym advertising its memberships would rather you never set foot on their premises. Beauty products want you to feel good about yourself, but only while you're wearing their products. McDonalds and Coca Cola do not want you to eat healthier, or enjoy their products only occasionally. It's actually shocking to see someone frame advertisers as pushing people towards making good decisions for themselves, when we've had to explicitly ban tobacco companies from advertising how sexy and popular smoking would make you.
nobody9999 3y ago
>So I've been producing ads for a couple of decades, and I agree that they're basically psychological warfare. I justify it to myself because I usually get to make ads for products that help people, but the war over mindshare is absolutely depraved. That said, there does need to be a place for people to access information about products and services. I'd just prefer it be a place that people go to intentionally learn about products and services, rather than something ingrained in every aspect of modern life. I spent a number of years doing market research for advertising, and I couldn't agree more. Data analysis is primarily focused on increasing "top of mind" and "unaided" awareness and linking positively-perceived properties and emotions to the product being flogged. I got out before "social media" convinced everyone to share everything about their lives with advertisers and their enablers, but back in the day, ad agencies and the marketing departments of large consumer product companies each spend millions every year (cf. BSB Global Scan[0] as an example) collecting a tiny subset of that data. Given the enormous amount of data available today, I imagine that the levels of manipulation have increased exponentially. And more's the pity. [0] https://www.proquest.com/openview/46f87cae3614d373064294a43b922c1b/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=31079 https://www.proquest.com/openview/46f87cae3614d373064294a43b...

prox 3y ago

One of my clients make really good products. I would say the best you can get (this is a mobility product) It has ergonomic properties that blows away any competition, and build quality is second to none. However, it’s expensive. It has been a really tough uphill climb to connect to our audience and convince them the money is worth it here. In a market with marked up shitty quality products it has been a journey to position ourselves, especially since our budgets are maybe 1/10th of that of aforementioned shitty producers who outmarket us. I honestly feel the work I am doing is near to a community service. Although still advertising our ads are honest of what the products can do.

_aavaa_ 3y ago

> You gotta _tell_ people you made something. I think that the rest of your discussion hinges on this assumption, and I completely disagree with it. What you need actually is for people to know that your product exist. People have needs & problem beyond the fake ones created by advertising. People can _ask_ for what options exist to solve their problem. And that to me is fundamentally different. Having a way for consumers to go out and pull information in about what options exist is fundamentally different from having advertising shoved down their throat.

andsoitis 3y ago
> People need can _ask_ for what options exist to solve their problem. Where do you propose people ask? Who would fulfill those queries? What formats would you allow the information to be expressed in? Would you filter out any non-objective characterization (“best car in the world”)? Would you constrain packaging (eg color, creativity, etc.) so that it isn’t attention-grabbing? Etc.
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  I’m not sure how it would all work out. But let’s start where we are now with search engines. Remove the ads and make people pay to use them beyond some number of queries a month. This alone gets rid of the problem of the platform intentionally shoving ads down your throat. Find a shitty website that SEO’d it’s way to the top and got through the cat and mouse game? Then allow people to blacklist websites so they stop appearing in results. Then as the provider investigate and downrank sites that people downrank and block often. Maybe also preferentially treat companies that don’t load their own sites with other people’s ads and tracking scripts. Oh and tell the user how many of those trackers exist on the site. This obviously don’t solve the problem of companies pushing ads onto you. But it: 1. Sets up your information provider to not be the biggest and worse ad pusher of them all. 2. It gives people the tools to start penalizing bad content and ads and to outright block them from their results. This alone, I strongly believe, would be a great improvement.
  - eszed 3y ago

Intermernet 3y ago

I recently bought a ski touring pack. It's almost certainly the best pack money can buy. The guy who made it has a waiting list and seems to be happy with his life. He doesn't advertise at all. If you find him, you move in the circles that mean that you want a high quality ski touring pack, and word of mouth will eventually reach you. If you really care about this category of product you can find him. The pack is competitive in price with anything else on the market of similar features and quality. It's not really a "luxury" or "boutique" product. This is an example of how businesses and customers can be perfectly happy without any advertising. It's not the only example, just the first that came to mind.

jacquesm 3y ago
I know a Polish guy that makes sleeping bags along much the same model. Best sleeping bags that you can find. He's got a waiting list longer than a year now and people don't mind. Never a single ad, just word of mouth. And no, it doesn't scale but he couldn't care less.
- shinryuu 3y ago
  Now you've got to tell me where to find him!
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    For a small fee...

salawat 3y ago

Wanna know how to tell people you did something? Put up a non-intrusive entry in a directory that people would use to reach out to you. Let them come to you. Stop hounding people to be the repeatedly ground in impression by repetition. So much time is wasted today... When I think of all the broadcasting/transmission medium throughput that's eaten up by carrying unsolicited advertisements to people that could either A) be left unused, or used to provide better performance for everyone, or B) utilized for, heaven forbid, the public calling out for proposals from service providers!