3 ms·

That dose/setting was the trigger here is pure speculation. Really, we should just leave it at: "sometimes, for unknown reasons, these drugs can fuck you up fo

by slibhb 3y ago

That dose/setting was the trigger here is pure speculation. Really, we should just leave it at: "sometimes, for unknown reasons, these drugs can fuck you up for years".

yowlingcat 3y ago
You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose. This used to be part of the cultural fabric of the more underground cultural aspects of psychonaut culture in times gone past; and before that, in how indigenous cultures have utilized these substances. But, I think the land rush in the commercialization and mainstreaming of the substance and its experience has resulted in an erosion around the the idea of responsible utilization that used to be there. Very similar arc, IMO, to the cannabis legalization cultural arc.
- slibhb 3y ago
  > You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. No you couldn't -- it depends how well the medication is understood/how much research exists. > I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose. We have no idea if "respecting" psychedelics has any effect, we don't have a good definition of "misuse" (outside of "if it negatively impacts your life, you're misusing it"), the idea of "mentors" is ill-defined and there's no evidence that it helps, and there's no evidence that "ramping up" is an effective way to avoid negative side effects. You're offering fake knowledge along the lines of "well something bad happened to him so he didn't 'respect' the drug". All you actually know is that you did drugs and didn't suffer negative side effects like this guy.
  - yowlingcat 3y ago
    Look, people have been using these substances for millennia to the degree that it is an integrated spiritual practice across a number of civilizations. I'm not sure why you want to ignore history to suit your narrative but it's telling that you're not engaging with it and it weakens your point. All you've illustrated is that /you/ don't know or care to find out about how the substance has been utilized. That has nothing to do with whether such an understanding exists or not and whether /others/ know something you don't. Suit yourself.
    - slibhb 3y ago
      You're posting hearsay and anecdote and passing it off as "thousands of years of spiritual practice". As I said, we don't have a good theory of why some people have lasting, negative side effects from using these drugs. Anyone claiming otherwise is just wrong. Dressing up your speculation with words like "integration, set/setting, mentors, etc" doesn't make it any less speculative. It's also obvious why you believe this stuff: because it makes you feel more secure in your own use of these substances. It's much harder to admit that you're rolling the dice when you fuck around with your brain chemistry.
      - yowlingcat 3y ago
        If you want to pass off your own ignorance as fact and speculate about my motivations, be my guest. No skin off of my back. Just out of curiosity, what kind of experience, if any, do you have inside the field of managed healthcare?
InSteady 3y ago
It is indeed all speculation at this point, but that doesn't mean we can't use intuition and educated guesses to minimize risk and hopefully build on cultural wisdom regarding psychedelics until the science catches up (which I expect will take a loooong time given how complex this is). A synopsis of his account: 1. The first time he tripped he took an unknown dose in an unfamiliar setting completely by himself and experienced some expended periods of "panic, anxiety, a lot of bad feelings." Descriptions like he thought he was dead, lost all sense of time, forgot he took mushrooms, felt like everything had gone to hell, etc. Some of his phrasing implies he didn't really even know what to expect from the drug, as in he just took a random dose with no understanding of what it might do to him, and after an initial period of enjoyment had a hellish trip (but came back just fine). 2. The [??, second?] time he tripped, he took an unknown dose in an unfamiliar setting and his mind/body was sending him signals of "don't do this please," which it sounds like the ever insidious peer pressure was ultimately able to override. Some of his phrasing again implies that he did not know what to expect from smoking DMT (as opposed to other psychedelics). He specifically mentions being significantly uncomfortable before and during his consumption of the drug. I think it would be obtuse to pretend we can't see any potential signs in these two stories about where he might have gone wrong, and what he might have done instead to lessen the risks of such an extreme, bad reaction to these powerful drugs. Of course we should not make categorical statements about how to avoid lasting damage from psychedelics, but we can certain spread knowledge about best practices which this person has blatantly ignored on several levels. Not blaming the guy, we all make mistakes and it is unfortunate that sometimes those mistakes have long-lasting or permanent negative effects. But throwing our hands up in the air and spreading the idea "you can't know anything about these drugs except that they randomly might break your brain" is not the correct response to stories like this. It could be true that psychedelics could randomly break anyone's brain at any time, but we just don't know that. There is a lot that we do know in the way of smart steps to take to minimize risk, along the lines of: Know your drug Know and trust your source, and/or test the drug prior to use Know your dose Know your body Know your family history Know your setting Be sure you feel safe in your setting Dose conservatively Have a sober friend Don't be afraid to abort the trip at the last minute If you have a terrible experience and come out of it OK, chalk it up to lesson learned and move on to other life experiences.. don't keep trying psychedelics. * please note that each of these bullet points merit a lot of elaboration, and as always, it behooves people to do extensive research with careful note-taking and planning before undertaking potential risky and life-altering behaviors and activities.

by slibhb 3y ago

That dose/setting was the trigger here is pure speculation. Really, we should just leave it at: "sometimes, for unknown reasons, these drugs can fuck you up for years".

yowlingcat 3y ago

You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose. This used to be part of the cultural fabric of the more underground cultural aspects of psychonaut culture in times gone past; and before that, in how indigenous cultures have utilized these substances. But, I think the land rush in the commercialization and mainstreaming of the substance and its experience has resulted in an erosion around the the idea of responsible utilization that used to be there. Very similar arc, IMO, to the cannabis legalization cultural arc.

slibhb 3y ago
> You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. No you couldn't -- it depends how well the medication is understood/how much research exists. > I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose. We have no idea if "respecting" psychedelics has any effect, we don't have a good definition of "misuse" (outside of "if it negatively impacts your life, you're misusing it"), the idea of "mentors" is ill-defined and there's no evidence that it helps, and there's no evidence that "ramping up" is an effective way to avoid negative side effects. You're offering fake knowledge along the lines of "well something bad happened to him so he didn't 'respect' the drug". All you actually know is that you did drugs and didn't suffer negative side effects like this guy.
- yowlingcat 3y ago
  Look, people have been using these substances for millennia to the degree that it is an integrated spiritual practice across a number of civilizations. I'm not sure why you want to ignore history to suit your narrative but it's telling that you're not engaging with it and it weakens your point. All you've illustrated is that /you/ don't know or care to find out about how the substance has been utilized. That has nothing to do with whether such an understanding exists or not and whether /others/ know something you don't. Suit yourself.
  - slibhb 3y ago
    You're posting hearsay and anecdote and passing it off as "thousands of years of spiritual practice". As I said, we don't have a good theory of why some people have lasting, negative side effects from using these drugs. Anyone claiming otherwise is just wrong. Dressing up your speculation with words like "integration, set/setting, mentors, etc" doesn't make it any less speculative. It's also obvious why you believe this stuff: because it makes you feel more secure in your own use of these substances. It's much harder to admit that you're rolling the dice when you fuck around with your brain chemistry.
    - yowlingcat 3y ago
      If you want to pass off your own ignorance as fact and speculate about my motivations, be my guest. No skin off of my back. Just out of curiosity, what kind of experience, if any, do you have inside the field of managed healthcare?

InSteady 3y ago

It is indeed all speculation at this point, but that doesn't mean we can't use intuition and educated guesses to minimize risk and hopefully build on cultural wisdom regarding psychedelics until the science catches up (which I expect will take a loooong time given how complex this is). A synopsis of his account: 1. The first time he tripped he took an unknown dose in an unfamiliar setting completely by himself and experienced some expended periods of "panic, anxiety, a lot of bad feelings." Descriptions like he thought he was dead, lost all sense of time, forgot he took mushrooms, felt like everything had gone to hell, etc. Some of his phrasing implies he didn't really even know what to expect from the drug, as in he just took a random dose with no understanding of what it might do to him, and after an initial period of enjoyment had a hellish trip (but came back just fine). 2. The [??, second?] time he tripped, he took an unknown dose in an unfamiliar setting and his mind/body was sending him signals of "don't do this please," which it sounds like the ever insidious peer pressure was ultimately able to override. Some of his phrasing again implies that he did not know what to expect from smoking DMT (as opposed to other psychedelics). He specifically mentions being significantly uncomfortable before and during his consumption of the drug. I think it would be obtuse to pretend we can't see any potential signs in these two stories about where he might have gone wrong, and what he might have done instead to lessen the risks of such an extreme, bad reaction to these powerful drugs. Of course we should not make categorical statements about how to avoid lasting damage from psychedelics, but we can certain spread knowledge about best practices which this person has blatantly ignored on several levels. Not blaming the guy, we all make mistakes and it is unfortunate that sometimes those mistakes have long-lasting or permanent negative effects. But throwing our hands up in the air and spreading the idea "you can't know anything about these drugs except that they randomly might break your brain" is not the correct response to stories like this. It could be true that psychedelics could randomly break anyone's brain at any time, but we just don't know that. There is a lot that we do know in the way of smart steps to take to minimize risk, along the lines of: Know your drug Know and trust your source, and/or test the drug prior to use Know your dose Know your body Know your family history Know your setting Be sure you feel safe in your setting Dose conservatively Have a sober friend Don't be afraid to abort the trip at the last minute If you have a terrible experience and come out of it OK, chalk it up to lesson learned and move on to other life experiences.. don't keep trying psychedelics. * please note that each of these bullet points merit a lot of elaboration, and as always, it behooves people to do extensive research with careful note-taking and planning before undertaking potential risky and life-altering behaviors and activities.