7 ms·

DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

61 points by superb-owl 3y ago

photochemsyn 3y ago
This effect is not uncommon with respect to powerful psychedelics but it does have a mechanistic neurological explanation which in turn helps explain the psychological (or spiritual if you like) knock-on effects. It's really the same kind of thing underlying optical illusions, such as the dancing grid dots illusion: https://mathworld.wolfram.com/ScintillatingGridIllusion.html https://mathworld.wolfram.com/ScintillatingGridIllusion.html Fundamentally your brain is interpreting signals coming in from your optic nerves at all times so you're not really 'directly experiencing reality', you're interpreting and processing a stream of data and constructing a map of reality from that data. This is usually all done unconsciously, but what psychedelics do at a mechanistic level is interfere with the neuronal processing of that data. You might get a crossover of memories feeding into the visual stream at some level of processing, hence 'seeing visions', or the sound channel might get mixed with the visual channel ('seeing sounnds and hearing colors'). It's not too surprising that this can have profound effects on people's psychology if they were not expecting or aware of this underlying mechanism. It's a concept in philosophy, as well, I believe it's called 'radical skepticism' or some such, the belief that nothing is real, and is in the same category as the simulation hypothesis, i.e. the belief we are in a Matrix VR world. This could plausibly lead to dissociation from normal goal-oriented behavior and result in full blown mental illness in extreme cases. Personally, I don't really see the difference between 'base reality' and 'perfect simulation' if there's no scientific method to distinguish between the two. If a flaming angel (or UFO) appears in the sky above me, I'll still try to collect its electomagnetic spectrum. Similarly, most people can recognize when they're under the influence of a drug and when they're completely sober - at least, with experience. A first-time user could definitely get these two confused, with dangerous consequences, hence all the warnings about set and setting, trip-sitters, etc. Regardless, those with a fragile grasp on reality or who are lacking a solid psychological core self-identity should definitely think twice about taking powerful psychedelics.
- willy_k 3y ago
  This ain’t it
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    No? I resonate with this take.
  - photochemsyn 3y ago
    What's missing?
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  I dealt with episodes of this when I was using MDMA regularly and it's not a problem of like, intellectually dealing with being confronted with how the brain works, because I was fully aware of all this and had no problem conceptualizing what was going on with me abstractly, but derealization and depersonalization is a very strong _feeling_ that is very hard to shake and you can't like rationalize yourself out of it. I think it was easier for me to _handle_, because I knew what it was, but that still didn't make it go away. For me it faded after I gave my brain time to recover -- it took a few months.
  - almost_usual 3y ago
    Right, this is like explaining the probability of a plane crash is statistically insignificant to someone who has a fear of flying. They can grok the logic and still _feel_ terror.
- oldstrangers 3y ago
  "those with a fragile grasp on reality" If anything, the most at risk are those that have a greater understanding of reality and the superficiality of it all. You can't go through a door if you don't know its there. So in that sense, if you haven't explored the existential depths of your own consciousness, you're much less likely to get lost. I've spent entirely too much time in my head, and I've put a lot of systems in place to help me reconnect, but I certainly know better than to test those systems too thoroughly.
jokowueu 3y ago
I have had derelization from acute stress but it was never disturbing to me and it went away when my environment changed Through the years I have dabbled with psychadelics with no downsides or upsides untill I decided to smoke cannabis for the first time , I had a very strong reaction that put me in depersonalization hell, it lasted 4 years , thankfully this was a few months before the lockdown . I was surprised to learn how many people have had depersonalization from cannabis after just one hit
- stingraycharles 3y ago
  What’s it like to experience derealization? For some reason I’m reading about it twice in a week suddenly, and I was never aware such an experience existed; I read a story about someone who slowly started suffering from derealization more and more, and was having trouble dealing with it after several years. It sounds frightening.
  - wholinator2 3y ago
    It is frightening, or more like just anxiety inducing ya know. I've only had it a couple times, the worst of which was withdrawing from cigarettes. It's like you suddenly realize your experience of reality has changed. Like just now you can see the frame around your existence, like your watching through a window and not just being in it. Except that that analogy only addresses visual acuity which the full experience is that but with all senses and especially the sense of self. Derealization is really just the best word to a profoundly strange and indescribable experience. I've also taken drugs that enforce that sensation and it's much more interesting and tolerable when you've done it intentionally, know what's happening, and that it will end. Those mind states have allowed me to explore emotions and sensations from a rather removed point of view and have some realizations (pun? Not intendes) that i wouldn't have otherwise. If you wear glasses, chances are you've learned to ignore the constant frames around your vision. I'd like you to intentionally notice them. Do you see how the vision you experience could be likened to a movie screen? You can look around but you are trapped inside this frame. Imagine if you weren't wearing glasses but you came to notice the frame at the edge of your vision. And upon noticing, found yourself incapable of slipping back into your regular sight. Like you've been pushed back and out of yourself, and you have no way to get back in. You're still in control but it's just that, _control_. It's not you, it's just control, and you can't make it you, no matter what you do. That's at least what it's felt like for me.
robblbobbl 3y ago
Interesting read and definitely related https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
isoprophlex 3y ago
Poor guy. That seems like it was totally preventable, and not the easiest way to enlightenment or confronting anxiety. I'm definitely not victim blaming here, yet I feel that this has to be reiterated often..: People, please never take unknown doses of drugs and/or have other people pressure you into taking drugs and/or do drugs in a shitty setting. You will probably have a bad time.
- slibhb 3y ago
  That dose/setting was the trigger here is pure speculation. Really, we should just leave it at: "sometimes, for unknown reasons, these drugs can fuck you up for years".
  - yowlingcat 3y ago
    You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose. This used to be part of the cultural fabric of the more underground cultural aspects of psychonaut culture in times gone past; and before that, in how indigenous cultures have utilized these substances. But, I think the land rush in the commercialization and mainstreaming of the substance and its experience has resulted in an erosion around the the idea of responsible utilization that used to be there. Very similar arc, IMO, to the cannabis legalization cultural arc.
    - slibhb 3y ago
      > You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. No you couldn't -- it depends how well the medication is understood/how much research exists. > I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose. We have no idea if "respecting" psychedelics has any effect, we don't have a good definition of "misuse" (outside of "if it negatively impacts your life, you're misusing it"), the idea of "mentors" is ill-defined and there's no evidence that it helps, and there's no evidence that "ramping up" is an effective way to avoid negative side effects. You're offering fake knowledge along the lines of "well something bad happened to him so he didn't 'respect' the drug". All you actually know is that you did drugs and didn't suffer negative side effects like this guy.
obsequiosity 3y ago
When it talked about perinatal experience something clicked for me. I've dabbled in mushrooms and Vipassana and after I left a meditation center I had that same spiritual emergency. But when I did sensory deprivation floats and practiced Vipassana in there, the death anxiety and derealization went away. I had to come back to attachments too but emerging from a pod that's warm and moist did help. Perinatal integration, perhaps.
pyentropy 3y ago
I've had horrible DR and DP as a child. It runs in families with anxiety disorders and personality disorders. No matter how many times it happened, it was always equally scary - feeling like a passive observer of a movie starring some piece of flesh and bones as the main character, feeling completely separate from that body and unable to control its decisions. The episodes usually lasted <30 minutes. I don't know about its occurrence in psychedelics, but in my case it always occurred after periods of extreme emotions (seeing a classmate die and being aware of my own mortality, being rejected by some 'friends' in school, and a few others). The way I see it (and some neuroscientists claim), the brain shuts the perception of "self" in order to stop intense emotional pain.
throwanem 3y ago
Nobody wants to discuss potential harms in a grassroots advocacy movement for legalization or normalization - we saw the same thing in decades past with cannabis. The reasons are understandable, but the results aren't great. I would rather see more openness up front even at the cost of complicating the message, than see folks end up with this kind of trouble because advocates chose not to be as honest about the risks as about the benefits.
- kibwen 3y ago
  > even at the cost of complicating the message The problem is that complicated messages don't scale. If your cause can't be reduced to a buzzphrase, you cannot achieve wide-spread change. I'm not trying to be deliberately edgy or cynical, it just seems like a fatal flaw of mass communication and human psychology.
  - throwanem 3y ago
    Then maybe mass activism is the wrong approach with such a powerful and dangerous tool as these substances.
    - steveylang 3y ago
      I am 100% for decriminalization, but understand it's not a black and white issue. I don't disagree with your point, at the same time there's a part of me that thinks, "You can't outlaw stupid." I feel for the guy in the article, but whether psychedelics are legal or not this guy was just not getting the message (I don't mean metahphysically, I just mean realizing that yes psychedelics are a powerful thing): > "So my first psychedelic experience was when I was 20 years old in in Amsterdam. I took mushrooms and I had a hell of a trip like because I wasn't aware of dosages and don't know what type of dosage I took." And then a few years later we get to this- > "I was planning to do an ayahuasca retreat in Peru, and a friend of mine said why not smoke DMT here. I didn't know that I was doing one of the strongest psychedelics on earth. I didn't have any preparation." Like I said I really do feel for the guy and hopes he finds resolution, but what was he thinking? I also hope lots of people read his story. I also think that 'net-zero trauma' poster/slide is pretty cringey. Like you said, it's not that simple.
jmfldn 3y ago
I'm not sure if I've had these exact experiences, but something related perhaps, albeit milder. When I was in my early twenties I consumed a lot of cannabis in the form of hash cakes one night and it triggered a panic attack. What was scary about the panic attack was this feeling of the world around me feeling dreamlike, or like I was in a dream I couldn't wake up from. It was like there's normally this safe ground we all walk on, and we don't know its even there, and that implicit feeling we all carry with us can drift away. It wasn't psychosis, I think it was just a by-product of anxiety, which in itself is a very mind altering experience. If you've ever had a panic attack or experienced severe anxiety states you'll know what I mean. It's effectively a bad trip, your perception is altered by the cortisol and adrenaline coursing through your brain and the resulting mental exhaustion and depressed emotions that can arise alongside it. I was predisposed to anxiety already, and I think this experience led me into developing mild to moderate panic disorder which was driven by fear of experiencing this state again. So it become a vicious circle. A fear of fear which, ironically, became a trigger for the feared thing. I believe it was made worse by my highly philosophical brain, and a deep immersion in existential philosophies. In particular Buddhism. So I was already used to a worldview which was challenging existentially let's say. Looking back, I was probably too young at the time, and maybe too anxious, to be immersed in all this naval gazing given my mental health. Decades later I'm OK, but I have residual panic feelings surfacing sometimes. The difference now is that I don't identify with them, I just see them as fleeting feelings producing a distorted sense of reality. The secret with anxiety, for me at least, is to not care if you feel anxious and to let it pass.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  > The secret with anxiety, for me at least, is to not care if you feel anxious and to let it pass. I think that's very insightful, since so often the "panic loop" is driven first and foremost by the anxiety over feeling anxious. People feel the stirrings of anxiety, and having had a panic attack, they're terrified of that sensation returning, which fuels their anxiety and focuses them on those feelings. It's a vicious circle which is hard to break without practice, and for some, medication.
  - jmfldn 3y ago
throwaway121abc 3y ago
This really hits home with me. I didn't read it, but in certain circumstances I think psychedelics work against you. Something similar happened to me and it feels like the last year has been hard because I've been a mix of depressed and apathetic. Like my liveliness disappeared. I'm speaking up because I wish I heard this before... that being said, here's a hypothesis why it goes wrong or right. The key is that there is a difference between: 1) being high 2) really feeling it For example, depending on how they make the Aya, you can sometimes be very high, but not feel it in the body. I think this uneventful experience translates to the real world afterwards. So your very high but nothing mystical happened. If psychedelics ever do have a place in society, we should try for experiences (thru brew ingredients) that make the person feel like something profound happened. These can be the hardest experiences (or amazing), but not doing it this way may be worse- you feel derealized/apathetic/callous. If we're not careful, there is going to be a backlash around it. Or worse, some people will fade and we'll lose some of our culture. Let's be careful, study the effects, and make it work!
- Garrrrrr 3y ago
  This comment really hits home with me. I didn't read it, but
RyanAdamas 3y ago
That happened to me, only I was 16, and it was before Google was around to tell me what happened. I would later come to find it was some form of ego death; though I've never heard it put the way the interviewee puts it, but he describes it well. It messed me up for almost a decade. It was this immediate change, not unlike when someone dies, only no one else believes that person is gone, only you realize it; for everyone else that person still exists and is just getting weirder. Kinda hard to explain to people what happened without them being dismissive cause they once took lsd in a van at a festival. Its not the same as a bad trip, and for me there was no recovery. Eh, shit happens and then you die. No one tells you, you lose parts along the way, too. But, you do.
- kyleyeats 3y ago
  I've described it as a form of ego death in my own philosophy. We basically have three selves: self, self-in-world and self-in-society. Ego death happens when the self-in-world dies (derealization) or the self-in-society dies (depersonalization). It's not actually that "self" that dies, though, just the associated narrative. You can still get emotional rewards of that flavor, just not from that narrative. Your other two "selves" have essentially voted it out and will no longer play along with it. The narratives can be as simple as I'm invincible or I have a special role to play in society which of course psychedelics can break apart.
- aatd86 3y ago
  The aliens tried to replace you. Put your ego in a background process. :o)
helsinki 3y ago
Is it just me or does DMT have one or the worst tastes / smells that exist?
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  Yeah, tryptamines and indoles in general tend to have really nasty aroma. I think one of the reasons is that they're chemically similar to skatole, which is an indole chemical that's one of the main components of the odour of faeces. Skatole can also build up in the meat of pigs, especially male adult ones, which is why some pork meat doesn't taste right. This is probably true for other meats as well. I've certainly encountered a similar off taste in lamb meat and duck meat before.
  - threads2 3y ago
    Thanks, didn't know this - but from my experience, DMT smoke smelled and tasted kind of plasticky (like when you burn plastic). Did I just interpret the poop-smell differently?
    - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
      I think it's just like that because skatole is only one of many odours in excrement, but it's the one that makes in uncomfortable and makes you want to get away from it. So evolutionarily it's useful to just get away from skatole whenever encountered. So it's not so much that it smells like poop, just is as revolting in some more general sense. And DMT probably has a lot of bitterness to it(can't remember what it tastes like, honestly, but I remember its cousins AMT and DPT being intensely bitter, though I didn't vape them). Weirdly, skatole also smells nice in very small quantities, and is apparently used in perfume. So yeah, odour is a pretty strange sense...
  - refurb 3y ago
    Interestingly, I've smelled pure skatole in the lab and it didn't smell bad at all, it smelled like mothballs (not surprisingly considering the structural similarity to naphthalene [moth balls]). My theory is that in the synthesis of skatole, you end up with a lot of indole impurities that smell like feces even in small quantities. They can be hard to remove so people associate skatole with the smell. It's pretty common in chemistry, many chemicals have bad smells from minor impurities. Isopropyl alcohol is a good example, it has small quantities of acetone. Ethanol has small quantities of acetaldehyde. Really pure ethanol smells quite sweet.
raydiatian 3y ago
This genuinely seems like a psychedelics hit piece. This joombah mentions taking psychedelics with zero preparation: alone, on a whim, without concern for dosage. For real? I have no sympathy for him. Nobody is this naive, and if he is perhaps it’s Mother Nature doing her magic.
- InSteady 3y ago
  Shit take. Young people make mistakes. So do full grown adults. This person isn't asking for your sympathy in any case, merely raising awareness of risks that sometimes (often in some circles) get glossed over.
  - raydiatian 3y ago
    Ya but I mean the potential of psychedelics today is their use in controlled therapeutic settings, so it’s not a shit take. Every aspect I pointed out from this article runs directly counter to the goals of establishing psychedelic therapies: that those therapies be guided, prepared, and dosed by body weight. > merely raising awareness This is so dumb it hurts, have we not been living in a war on drugs since the 1960’s, whose awareness is being raised, “drugs are bad mmkay” And that pulls back around to my point. We’ve been living in an anti-drug context for so long, both the emerging markets and the mental health benefits are not served by anecdotal accounts of idiots not looking before they leap.
imaginary_unit 3y ago
I would assume a bad trip can cause PTSD not unlike other events that are usually associated with PTSD.
ZitchDog 3y ago
I have tried psychedelics at high dose and never had any issues with derealization. However when I started meditating 1/hr per day I started noticing things just started seeming "fake" and like I wasn't a "real person". Backing off to meditating 30 minutes daily, it completely went away.
quechimba 3y ago
I wouldn't recommend anyone to smoke DMT or changa, it's way too strong and it's difficult to make sense out of the experience afterwards. Ayahuasca is an amazing medicine. If you decide to do it, do it in the Peruvian Amazon, read the reviews carefully of each retreat center before you decide on which one to go to. Follow the diet and any other restrictions, this is especially important AFTER drinking ayahuasca. The shaman will tell you what to avoid and for how long. Don't use kambo, bufo or rapé before, during or after the retreat, it will interfere with the treatment. A lot of vendors in Iquitos will try to convince you that it's good to combine rapé with ayahuasca, but it isn't. Ayahuasca works best alone. Basically you should only be doing ayahuasca (and mapacho if you like to smoke). It's a very powerful medicine and if you drink with someone with bad intentions it can be very dangerous.
- goolz 3y ago
  I think, like all drugs, this is too broad a stroke. Instead I suggest you first look into your personal history with psychedelics, then do some research and ensure you dose properly (weigh yourself and use a triple point scale). Alternatively, DMT carts are much weaker and you rarely “blast off” with them. Yes, it is a very strong compound. But I have had some of the best experiences of my life on it. YMMV of course.
- hezralig 3y ago
  I have had great experiences smoking changa and having therapeutic breakthroughs in my understanding of my life, biases I was unaware of, and new perspective in approaches to tough problems. I think the devil is in the dose.
  - goolz 3y ago
    Yep! I am a big proponent of drug testing/harm-reduction and dosage is a huge problem a lot of people face. With experience comes a good sense of what you can handle but for those new to this check out resources like Erowid (we love you).
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  Don't use kambo at all, period. That shit is seriously dangerous. Edit: had to google rapé. Don't use rapé either, which is just a name for nicotina rustica, a tobacco plant that has a lot more nicotine than normal tobacco. So unless you're a smoker already, it will just make you vomit a lot. And it could even kill you since nicotine is extremely acutely toxic. And in general, I would recommend against travelling to the rainforest to take ayahuasca. It's not going to do anything for you that you can't do with some locally growing mushrooms, or a fitting synthetic drug(2c-b is very safe, for instance). You're much better off integrating and going through the experience with friends and family than a bunch of complete strangers.
whalesalad 3y ago
I had the opposite experience with psychedelics. I was dissociated from myself for many many years and mushrooms/meditation over the course of a year helped me find my true self.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
slibhb 3y ago
60% of posts in every HN thread about psychedelics are whackos peddling fake knowledge. To me, the interesting question is whether this special mix of new-age spiritual bullshit and two-points-make-a-line, post-hoc reasoning is caused by psychedelic-use or if people who think this way are merely attracted to drugs. Or both. Further research should hone in on this important question.
- colecut 3y ago
  I don't know, to me this has been the least insightful comment so far. I don't even know what you are complaining about.
- jmfldn 3y ago
  That's a bit over the top. It's just people having a conversation and sharing their experiences. Quite interesting to see that it's not that uncommon. Is there selection bias here, with those reporting ill effects having a particular thinking style and interests? Sure, could be part of it. As you allude to, it's a complex topic, people will have these experiences for a variety of reasons and unpicking the various causes is probably very hard.
jeffscottwise 3y ago
I've had these experiences myself, mostly in the context of meditation, and they are terrifying. They are also immensely beneficial and similar to the very states of consciousness that myself and many others spend hundreds/thousands of hours trying to attain. I'm sure that if myself from two years ago was transported into my current reality/experience I would freak out. The issue with psychedelics is that they induce these perspectives, but without an understanding of what they mean and/or why they are beneficial. What Buddhism teaches us (and what each meditator has to prove to themselves!!) is that the nature of reality is not what we think. In fact, (1) nothing is permanent, (2) nothing has substance, and (3) nothing is in control of anything else. These three characteristics of reality are so far away from and in such contrast to our normal, everyday conception of reality, that you can witness these characteristics directly and still not believe them. It's because you are believing your thoughts instead. And that's normally fine, because they are naturally trying to protect you from what you don't understand. Your thinking is what make the "emptiness" terrifying. That's why most meditation practices focus (albeit not always explicitly) on a balance of insight into emptiness with more happiness and peace-oriented practices such as lovingkindness and samatha. That way, when you have insights into things not being as real as you thought, you know that it's okay, but you also feel that it's okay. It's really unfortunate for Matias, but perhaps some insight into the theory behind meditation is actually what is needed here. The thoughts about the experience are the problem, not the experience itself. The correct solution is of course whatever Matias intuitively feels is best. Perhaps this state of consciousness can never be healed/harmonized, but correcting the problematic habits of thought (not following those three characteristics) may be easier than trying to undo the entire state of consciousness. I am certainly wishing him the absolute best :)
agnos 3y ago
I've had similar experiences with psychedelics. It seems like once you lose touch with some sort of "self-image", it can be very hard to get back. Wish this was talked about more. The first and most pronounced depersonalization experience I've had was with mushrooms. I had taken ~2g of dried mushrooms and was feeling pretty good, so I decided to take a walk in the park near my apartment. Gradually I started feeling like the boundary between my self and the outside world was getting fuzzier. My body felt like a machine that existed as part of a larger machine. Then, suddenly, I thought: who is the driver of this machine? If I'm the machine, what is driving it? I felt like I was taking a walk in the park with a VR headset on. I wanted to take off the VR headset and experience "true" reality. I kept asking myself this question, shedding layers of self-identity, until I reached a state of absolute nothingness. Absolute, zero, blackness. It was probably only a brief second, but in that moment time didn't seem to exist. I didn't seem to exist. The actual experience of the "absolute nothingness" wasn't bad per se, but integrating it back into daily life was a struggle. It felt like nothing made sense. I "remembered" who I was, but I couldn't seem to just immerse myself in that person again. The layers of my self-identity didn't feel real anymore. Nothing felt like it had a reason for existing. Everything was arbitrary. For a while after that experience, daily life became a struggle. I didn't have the motivation to do anything. Talking to people was hard because I felt everyone was wearing a mask of sorts. It's also hard to understand this sort of DP/DR unless you've experienced it. Like the article, I remember discovering the terms "depersonalization" and "derealization" from desperate Google searches. It gave me a bit of relief to just be able to put labels on the experience. I read about "ego death", which also gave me some perspective. I also started developing physical symptoms. The explanation is probably just stress/cortisol, but it seemed like the cells in my body also suffered from this lack of subjective identity. I developed chronic inflammation, an autoimmune condition, and had trouble sleeping. Gradually, over a year or so, I got better, I think due to gradually forgetting about the experience. Still, I don't think I ever returned to the person I was before. It seems like there will always be a part of me that "refuses to drink the Kool-aid" -- that can't fully subscribe to my ego's self-identity anymore. That being said, I don't regret the experience, as I think there was some sort of truth in it. But I do wish stories like this were talked about more. It's not about avoiding "bad trips", but finding a way to integrate it into your life.

61 points by superb-owl 3y ago

This effect is not uncommon with respect to powerful psychedelics but it does have a mechanistic neurological explanation which in turn helps explain the psychological (or spiritual if you like) knock-on effects. It's really the same kind of thing underlying optical illusions, such as the dancing grid dots illusion: https://mathworld.wolfram.com/ScintillatingGridIllusion.html https://mathworld.wolfram.com/ScintillatingGridIllusion.html Fundamentally your brain is interpreting signals coming in from your optic nerves at all times so you're not really 'directly experiencing reality', you're interpreting and processing a stream of data and constructing a map of reality from that data. This is usually all done unconsciously, but what psychedelics do at a mechanistic level is interfere with the neuronal processing of that data. You might get a crossover of memories feeding into the visual stream at some level of processing, hence 'seeing visions', or the sound channel might get mixed with the visual channel ('seeing sounnds and hearing colors'). It's not too surprising that this can have profound effects on people's psychology if they were not expecting or aware of this underlying mechanism. It's a concept in philosophy, as well, I believe it's called 'radical skepticism' or some such, the belief that nothing is real, and is in the same category as the simulation hypothesis, i.e. the belief we are in a Matrix VR world. This could plausibly lead to dissociation from normal goal-oriented behavior and result in full blown mental illness in extreme cases. Personally, I don't really see the difference between 'base reality' and 'perfect simulation' if there's no scientific method to distinguish between the two. If a flaming angel (or UFO) appears in the sky above me, I'll still try to collect its electomagnetic spectrum. Similarly, most people can recognize when they're under the influence of a drug and when they're completely sober - at least, with experience. A first-time user could definitely get these two confused, with dangerous consequences, hence all the warnings about set and setting, trip-sitters, etc. Regardless, those with a fragile grasp on reality or who are lacking a solid psychological core self-identity should definitely think twice about taking powerful psychedelics.

willy_k 3y ago
This ain’t it
- whalesalad 3y ago
  No? I resonate with this take.
- photochemsyn 3y ago
  What's missing?
empath-nirvana 3y ago
I dealt with episodes of this when I was using MDMA regularly and it's not a problem of like, intellectually dealing with being confronted with how the brain works, because I was fully aware of all this and had no problem conceptualizing what was going on with me abstractly, but derealization and depersonalization is a very strong _feeling_ that is very hard to shake and you can't like rationalize yourself out of it. I think it was easier for me to _handle_, because I knew what it was, but that still didn't make it go away. For me it faded after I gave my brain time to recover -- it took a few months.
- almost_usual 3y ago
  Right, this is like explaining the probability of a plane crash is statistically insignificant to someone who has a fear of flying. They can grok the logic and still _feel_ terror.
oldstrangers 3y ago
"those with a fragile grasp on reality" If anything, the most at risk are those that have a greater understanding of reality and the superficiality of it all. You can't go through a door if you don't know its there. So in that sense, if you haven't explored the existential depths of your own consciousness, you're much less likely to get lost. I've spent entirely too much time in my head, and I've put a lot of systems in place to help me reconnect, but I certainly know better than to test those systems too thoroughly.

jokowueu 3y ago

I have had derelization from acute stress but it was never disturbing to me and it went away when my environment changed Through the years I have dabbled with psychadelics with no downsides or upsides untill I decided to smoke cannabis for the first time , I had a very strong reaction that put me in depersonalization hell, it lasted 4 years , thankfully this was a few months before the lockdown . I was surprised to learn how many people have had depersonalization from cannabis after just one hit

stingraycharles 3y ago
What’s it like to experience derealization? For some reason I’m reading about it twice in a week suddenly, and I was never aware such an experience existed; I read a story about someone who slowly started suffering from derealization more and more, and was having trouble dealing with it after several years. It sounds frightening.
- wholinator2 3y ago
  It is frightening, or more like just anxiety inducing ya know. I've only had it a couple times, the worst of which was withdrawing from cigarettes. It's like you suddenly realize your experience of reality has changed. Like just now you can see the frame around your existence, like your watching through a window and not just being in it. Except that that analogy only addresses visual acuity which the full experience is that but with all senses and especially the sense of self. Derealization is really just the best word to a profoundly strange and indescribable experience. I've also taken drugs that enforce that sensation and it's much more interesting and tolerable when you've done it intentionally, know what's happening, and that it will end. Those mind states have allowed me to explore emotions and sensations from a rather removed point of view and have some realizations (pun? Not intendes) that i wouldn't have otherwise. If you wear glasses, chances are you've learned to ignore the constant frames around your vision. I'd like you to intentionally notice them. Do you see how the vision you experience could be likened to a movie screen? You can look around but you are trapped inside this frame. Imagine if you weren't wearing glasses but you came to notice the frame at the edge of your vision. And upon noticing, found yourself incapable of slipping back into your regular sight. Like you've been pushed back and out of yourself, and you have no way to get back in. You're still in control but it's just that, _control_. It's not you, it's just control, and you can't make it you, no matter what you do. That's at least what it's felt like for me.

robblbobbl 3y ago

Interesting read and definitely related https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

deleted 3y ago
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isoprophlex 3y ago

Poor guy. That seems like it was totally preventable, and not the easiest way to enlightenment or confronting anxiety. I'm definitely not victim blaming here, yet I feel that this has to be reiterated often..: People, please never take unknown doses of drugs and/or have other people pressure you into taking drugs and/or do drugs in a shitty setting. You will probably have a bad time.

slibhb 3y ago
That dose/setting was the trigger here is pure speculation. Really, we should just leave it at: "sometimes, for unknown reasons, these drugs can fuck you up for years".
- yowlingcat 3y ago
  You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose. This used to be part of the cultural fabric of the more underground cultural aspects of psychonaut culture in times gone past; and before that, in how indigenous cultures have utilized these substances. But, I think the land rush in the commercialization and mainstreaming of the substance and its experience has resulted in an erosion around the the idea of responsible utilization that used to be there. Very similar arc, IMO, to the cannabis legalization cultural arc.
  - slibhb 3y ago
    > You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. No you couldn't -- it depends how well the medication is understood/how much research exists. > I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up that doesn't start off with a "heroic" dose. We have no idea if "respecting" psychedelics has any effect, we don't have a good definition of "misuse" (outside of "if it negatively impacts your life, you're misusing it"), the idea of "mentors" is ill-defined and there's no evidence that it helps, and there's no evidence that "ramping up" is an effective way to avoid negative side effects. You're offering fake knowledge along the lines of "well something bad happened to him so he didn't 'respect' the drug". All you actually know is that you did drugs and didn't suffer negative side effects like this guy.

obsequiosity 3y ago

When it talked about perinatal experience something clicked for me. I've dabbled in mushrooms and Vipassana and after I left a meditation center I had that same spiritual emergency. But when I did sensory deprivation floats and practiced Vipassana in there, the death anxiety and derealization went away. I had to come back to attachments too but emerging from a pod that's warm and moist did help. Perinatal integration, perhaps.

pyentropy 3y ago

I've had horrible DR and DP as a child. It runs in families with anxiety disorders and personality disorders. No matter how many times it happened, it was always equally scary - feeling like a passive observer of a movie starring some piece of flesh and bones as the main character, feeling completely separate from that body and unable to control its decisions. The episodes usually lasted <30 minutes. I don't know about its occurrence in psychedelics, but in my case it always occurred after periods of extreme emotions (seeing a classmate die and being aware of my own mortality, being rejected by some 'friends' in school, and a few others). The way I see it (and some neuroscientists claim), the brain shuts the perception of "self" in order to stop intense emotional pain.

throwanem 3y ago

Nobody wants to discuss potential harms in a grassroots advocacy movement for legalization or normalization - we saw the same thing in decades past with cannabis. The reasons are understandable, but the results aren't great. I would rather see more openness up front even at the cost of complicating the message, than see folks end up with this kind of trouble because advocates chose not to be as honest about the risks as about the benefits.

kibwen 3y ago
> even at the cost of complicating the message The problem is that complicated messages don't scale. If your cause can't be reduced to a buzzphrase, you cannot achieve wide-spread change. I'm not trying to be deliberately edgy or cynical, it just seems like a fatal flaw of mass communication and human psychology.
- throwanem 3y ago
  Then maybe mass activism is the wrong approach with such a powerful and dangerous tool as these substances.
  - steveylang 3y ago
    I am 100% for decriminalization, but understand it's not a black and white issue. I don't disagree with your point, at the same time there's a part of me that thinks, "You can't outlaw stupid." I feel for the guy in the article, but whether psychedelics are legal or not this guy was just not getting the message (I don't mean metahphysically, I just mean realizing that yes psychedelics are a powerful thing): > "So my first psychedelic experience was when I was 20 years old in in Amsterdam. I took mushrooms and I had a hell of a trip like because I wasn't aware of dosages and don't know what type of dosage I took." And then a few years later we get to this- > "I was planning to do an ayahuasca retreat in Peru, and a friend of mine said why not smoke DMT here. I didn't know that I was doing one of the strongest psychedelics on earth. I didn't have any preparation." Like I said I really do feel for the guy and hopes he finds resolution, but what was he thinking? I also hope lots of people read his story. I also think that 'net-zero trauma' poster/slide is pretty cringey. Like you said, it's not that simple.

jmfldn 3y ago

I'm not sure if I've had these exact experiences, but something related perhaps, albeit milder. When I was in my early twenties I consumed a lot of cannabis in the form of hash cakes one night and it triggered a panic attack. What was scary about the panic attack was this feeling of the world around me feeling dreamlike, or like I was in a dream I couldn't wake up from. It was like there's normally this safe ground we all walk on, and we don't know its even there, and that implicit feeling we all carry with us can drift away. It wasn't psychosis, I think it was just a by-product of anxiety, which in itself is a very mind altering experience. If you've ever had a panic attack or experienced severe anxiety states you'll know what I mean. It's effectively a bad trip, your perception is altered by the cortisol and adrenaline coursing through your brain and the resulting mental exhaustion and depressed emotions that can arise alongside it. I was predisposed to anxiety already, and I think this experience led me into developing mild to moderate panic disorder which was driven by fear of experiencing this state again. So it become a vicious circle. A fear of fear which, ironically, became a trigger for the feared thing. I believe it was made worse by my highly philosophical brain, and a deep immersion in existential philosophies. In particular Buddhism. So I was already used to a worldview which was challenging existentially let's say. Looking back, I was probably too young at the time, and maybe too anxious, to be immersed in all this naval gazing given my mental health. Decades later I'm OK, but I have residual panic feelings surfacing sometimes. The difference now is that I don't identify with them, I just see them as fleeting feelings producing a distorted sense of reality. The secret with anxiety, for me at least, is to not care if you feel anxious and to let it pass.

EA-3167 3y ago
> The secret with anxiety, for me at least, is to not care if you feel anxious and to let it pass. I think that's very insightful, since so often the "panic loop" is driven first and foremost by the anxiety over feeling anxious. People feel the stirrings of anxiety, and having had a panic attack, they're terrified of that sensation returning, which fuels their anxiety and focuses them on those feelings. It's a vicious circle which is hard to break without practice, and for some, medication.
- jmfldn 3y ago

throwaway121abc 3y ago

This really hits home with me. I didn't read it, but in certain circumstances I think psychedelics work against you. Something similar happened to me and it feels like the last year has been hard because I've been a mix of depressed and apathetic. Like my liveliness disappeared. I'm speaking up because I wish I heard this before... that being said, here's a hypothesis why it goes wrong or right. The key is that there is a difference between: 1) being high 2) really feeling it For example, depending on how they make the Aya, you can sometimes be very high, but not feel it in the body. I think this uneventful experience translates to the real world afterwards. So your very high but nothing mystical happened. If psychedelics ever do have a place in society, we should try for experiences (thru brew ingredients) that make the person feel like something profound happened. These can be the hardest experiences (or amazing), but not doing it this way may be worse- you feel derealized/apathetic/callous. If we're not careful, there is going to be a backlash around it. Or worse, some people will fade and we'll lose some of our culture. Let's be careful, study the effects, and make it work!

Garrrrrr 3y ago
This comment really hits home with me. I didn't read it, but

RyanAdamas 3y ago

That happened to me, only I was 16, and it was before Google was around to tell me what happened. I would later come to find it was some form of ego death; though I've never heard it put the way the interviewee puts it, but he describes it well. It messed me up for almost a decade. It was this immediate change, not unlike when someone dies, only no one else believes that person is gone, only you realize it; for everyone else that person still exists and is just getting weirder. Kinda hard to explain to people what happened without them being dismissive cause they once took lsd in a van at a festival. Its not the same as a bad trip, and for me there was no recovery. Eh, shit happens and then you die. No one tells you, you lose parts along the way, too. But, you do.

kyleyeats 3y ago
I've described it as a form of ego death in my own philosophy. We basically have three selves: self, self-in-world and self-in-society. Ego death happens when the self-in-world dies (derealization) or the self-in-society dies (depersonalization). It's not actually that "self" that dies, though, just the associated narrative. You can still get emotional rewards of that flavor, just not from that narrative. Your other two "selves" have essentially voted it out and will no longer play along with it. The narratives can be as simple as I'm invincible or I have a special role to play in society which of course psychedelics can break apart.
aatd86 3y ago
The aliens tried to replace you. Put your ego in a background process. :o)

helsinki 3y ago

Is it just me or does DMT have one or the worst tastes / smells that exist?

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
Yeah, tryptamines and indoles in general tend to have really nasty aroma. I think one of the reasons is that they're chemically similar to skatole, which is an indole chemical that's one of the main components of the odour of faeces. Skatole can also build up in the meat of pigs, especially male adult ones, which is why some pork meat doesn't taste right. This is probably true for other meats as well. I've certainly encountered a similar off taste in lamb meat and duck meat before.
- threads2 3y ago
  Thanks, didn't know this - but from my experience, DMT smoke smelled and tasted kind of plasticky (like when you burn plastic). Did I just interpret the poop-smell differently?
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    I think it's just like that because skatole is only one of many odours in excrement, but it's the one that makes in uncomfortable and makes you want to get away from it. So evolutionarily it's useful to just get away from skatole whenever encountered. So it's not so much that it smells like poop, just is as revolting in some more general sense. And DMT probably has a lot of bitterness to it(can't remember what it tastes like, honestly, but I remember its cousins AMT and DPT being intensely bitter, though I didn't vape them). Weirdly, skatole also smells nice in very small quantities, and is apparently used in perfume. So yeah, odour is a pretty strange sense...
- refurb 3y ago
  Interestingly, I've smelled pure skatole in the lab and it didn't smell bad at all, it smelled like mothballs (not surprisingly considering the structural similarity to naphthalene [moth balls]). My theory is that in the synthesis of skatole, you end up with a lot of indole impurities that smell like feces even in small quantities. They can be hard to remove so people associate skatole with the smell. It's pretty common in chemistry, many chemicals have bad smells from minor impurities. Isopropyl alcohol is a good example, it has small quantities of acetone. Ethanol has small quantities of acetaldehyde. Really pure ethanol smells quite sweet.

raydiatian 3y ago

This genuinely seems like a psychedelics hit piece. This joombah mentions taking psychedelics with zero preparation: alone, on a whim, without concern for dosage. For real? I have no sympathy for him. Nobody is this naive, and if he is perhaps it’s Mother Nature doing her magic.

InSteady 3y ago
Shit take. Young people make mistakes. So do full grown adults. This person isn't asking for your sympathy in any case, merely raising awareness of risks that sometimes (often in some circles) get glossed over.
- raydiatian 3y ago
  Ya but I mean the potential of psychedelics today is their use in controlled therapeutic settings, so it’s not a shit take. Every aspect I pointed out from this article runs directly counter to the goals of establishing psychedelic therapies: that those therapies be guided, prepared, and dosed by body weight. > merely raising awareness This is so dumb it hurts, have we not been living in a war on drugs since the 1960’s, whose awareness is being raised, “drugs are bad mmkay” And that pulls back around to my point. We’ve been living in an anti-drug context for so long, both the emerging markets and the mental health benefits are not served by anecdotal accounts of idiots not looking before they leap.

imaginary_unit 3y ago

I would assume a bad trip can cause PTSD not unlike other events that are usually associated with PTSD.

ZitchDog 3y ago

I have tried psychedelics at high dose and never had any issues with derealization. However when I started meditating 1/hr per day I started noticing things just started seeming "fake" and like I wasn't a "real person". Backing off to meditating 30 minutes daily, it completely went away.

quechimba 3y ago

I wouldn't recommend anyone to smoke DMT or changa, it's way too strong and it's difficult to make sense out of the experience afterwards. Ayahuasca is an amazing medicine. If you decide to do it, do it in the Peruvian Amazon, read the reviews carefully of each retreat center before you decide on which one to go to. Follow the diet and any other restrictions, this is especially important AFTER drinking ayahuasca. The shaman will tell you what to avoid and for how long. Don't use kambo, bufo or rapé before, during or after the retreat, it will interfere with the treatment. A lot of vendors in Iquitos will try to convince you that it's good to combine rapé with ayahuasca, but it isn't. Ayahuasca works best alone. Basically you should only be doing ayahuasca (and mapacho if you like to smoke). It's a very powerful medicine and if you drink with someone with bad intentions it can be very dangerous.

goolz 3y ago
I think, like all drugs, this is too broad a stroke. Instead I suggest you first look into your personal history with psychedelics, then do some research and ensure you dose properly (weigh yourself and use a triple point scale). Alternatively, DMT carts are much weaker and you rarely “blast off” with them. Yes, it is a very strong compound. But I have had some of the best experiences of my life on it. YMMV of course.
hezralig 3y ago
I have had great experiences smoking changa and having therapeutic breakthroughs in my understanding of my life, biases I was unaware of, and new perspective in approaches to tough problems. I think the devil is in the dose.
- goolz 3y ago
  Yep! I am a big proponent of drug testing/harm-reduction and dosage is a huge problem a lot of people face. With experience comes a good sense of what you can handle but for those new to this check out resources like Erowid (we love you).
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
Don't use kambo at all, period. That shit is seriously dangerous. Edit: had to google rapé. Don't use rapé either, which is just a name for nicotina rustica, a tobacco plant that has a lot more nicotine than normal tobacco. So unless you're a smoker already, it will just make you vomit a lot. And it could even kill you since nicotine is extremely acutely toxic. And in general, I would recommend against travelling to the rainforest to take ayahuasca. It's not going to do anything for you that you can't do with some locally growing mushrooms, or a fitting synthetic drug(2c-b is very safe, for instance). You're much better off integrating and going through the experience with friends and family than a bunch of complete strangers.

whalesalad 3y ago

I had the opposite experience with psychedelics. I was dissociated from myself for many many years and mushrooms/meditation over the course of a year helped me find my true self.

deleted 3y ago

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slibhb 3y ago

60% of posts in every HN thread about psychedelics are whackos peddling fake knowledge. To me, the interesting question is whether this special mix of new-age spiritual bullshit and two-points-make-a-line, post-hoc reasoning is caused by psychedelic-use or if people who think this way are merely attracted to drugs. Or both. Further research should hone in on this important question.

colecut 3y ago
I don't know, to me this has been the least insightful comment so far. I don't even know what you are complaining about.
jmfldn 3y ago
That's a bit over the top. It's just people having a conversation and sharing their experiences. Quite interesting to see that it's not that uncommon. Is there selection bias here, with those reporting ill effects having a particular thinking style and interests? Sure, could be part of it. As you allude to, it's a complex topic, people will have these experiences for a variety of reasons and unpicking the various causes is probably very hard.

jeffscottwise 3y ago

I've had these experiences myself, mostly in the context of meditation, and they are terrifying. They are also immensely beneficial and similar to the very states of consciousness that myself and many others spend hundreds/thousands of hours trying to attain. I'm sure that if myself from two years ago was transported into my current reality/experience I would freak out. The issue with psychedelics is that they induce these perspectives, but without an understanding of what they mean and/or why they are beneficial. What Buddhism teaches us (and what each meditator has to prove to themselves!!) is that the nature of reality is not what we think. In fact, (1) nothing is permanent, (2) nothing has substance, and (3) nothing is in control of anything else. These three characteristics of reality are so far away from and in such contrast to our normal, everyday conception of reality, that you can witness these characteristics directly and still not believe them. It's because you are believing your thoughts instead. And that's normally fine, because they are naturally trying to protect you from what you don't understand. Your thinking is what make the "emptiness" terrifying. That's why most meditation practices focus (albeit not always explicitly) on a balance of insight into emptiness with more happiness and peace-oriented practices such as lovingkindness and samatha. That way, when you have insights into things not being as real as you thought, you know that it's okay, but you also feel that it's okay. It's really unfortunate for Matias, but perhaps some insight into the theory behind meditation is actually what is needed here. The thoughts about the experience are the problem, not the experience itself. The correct solution is of course whatever Matias intuitively feels is best. Perhaps this state of consciousness can never be healed/harmonized, but correcting the problematic habits of thought (not following those three characteristics) may be easier than trying to undo the entire state of consciousness. I am certainly wishing him the absolute best :)

agnos 3y ago

I've had similar experiences with psychedelics. It seems like once you lose touch with some sort of "self-image", it can be very hard to get back. Wish this was talked about more. The first and most pronounced depersonalization experience I've had was with mushrooms. I had taken ~2g of dried mushrooms and was feeling pretty good, so I decided to take a walk in the park near my apartment. Gradually I started feeling like the boundary between my self and the outside world was getting fuzzier. My body felt like a machine that existed as part of a larger machine. Then, suddenly, I thought: who is the driver of this machine? If I'm the machine, what is driving it? I felt like I was taking a walk in the park with a VR headset on. I wanted to take off the VR headset and experience "true" reality. I kept asking myself this question, shedding layers of self-identity, until I reached a state of absolute nothingness. Absolute, zero, blackness. It was probably only a brief second, but in that moment time didn't seem to exist. I didn't seem to exist. The actual experience of the "absolute nothingness" wasn't bad per se, but integrating it back into daily life was a struggle. It felt like nothing made sense. I "remembered" who I was, but I couldn't seem to just immerse myself in that person again. The layers of my self-identity didn't feel real anymore. Nothing felt like it had a reason for existing. Everything was arbitrary. For a while after that experience, daily life became a struggle. I didn't have the motivation to do anything. Talking to people was hard because I felt everyone was wearing a mask of sorts. It's also hard to understand this sort of DP/DR unless you've experienced it. Like the article, I remember discovering the terms "depersonalization" and "derealization" from desperate Google searches. It gave me a bit of relief to just be able to put labels on the experience. I read about "ego death", which also gave me some perspective. I also started developing physical symptoms. The explanation is probably just stress/cortisol, but it seemed like the cells in my body also suffered from this lack of subjective identity. I developed chronic inflammation, an autoimmune condition, and had trouble sleeping. Gradually, over a year or so, I got better, I think due to gradually forgetting about the experience. Still, I don't think I ever returned to the person I was before. It seems like there will always be a part of me that "refuses to drink the Kool-aid" -- that can't fully subscribe to my ego's self-identity anymore. That being said, I don't regret the experience, as I think there was some sort of truth in it. But I do wish stories like this were talked about more. It's not about avoiding "bad trips", but finding a way to integrate it into your life.