5 ms·

Why do you say it's 99% propaganda? "sinofication" sounds a lot like "eliminating the existing culture" which sounds a lot like genocide. Genocide is more tha

Why do you say it's 99% propaganda? "sinofication" sounds a lot like "eliminating the existing culture" which sounds a lot like genocide. Genocide is more than just murdering everyone like in some of the most well known cases like the Holocaust -- it includes elimination of an ethnic group by any means possible, including "nativification"

ineptech 3y ago
I understand where you're coming from, but -cide implies killing.
- KptMarchewa 3y ago
  Of a nation or ethnic group.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  the "cide" in genocide refers to destroying for example, a cultural genocide refers to destroying culture, e.g. Uighur or Muslim culture
  - woooooo 3y ago
    Would you say the choice of the word "genocide" here is because it's the most accurate description of what's going on? Or is it chosen for rhetorical/propaganda effect without too much concern for accuracy?
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      Would you say the common, accurate usage of the term "cultural genocide" to refer to what the term refers to, is a bigger or smaller problem than the actual cultural genocide itself?
    - mayormcmatt 3y ago
      Not the person you're responding to, but it is an accurate description of genocide under its current meaning as defined by the UN (probably the most authoritative body on this kind of matter). https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml What the Chinese are doing there is covered under Article II, c. If you are being pedantic by holding fast to the literal Greek translation of "geno" and "cide" then, well, this is simply not the complete modern meaning of the term.
      - woooooo 3y ago
        That article IIc pivots on the key phrase "physical destruction". Look, internment isnt good either, why dig in your heels on the most loaded possible word?
        ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        physical destruction, internment, cultural genocide, they are all happening why not focus on that, rather than your personal, individual dislike of a term? why dig your heels in on the semantics of the thing, rather than the substance?
        goodgrieving 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - ineptech 3y ago
        There is no authoritative body on the definitions of words. More generally, if genocide can mean "not killling, but very bad" then it is not much use except as an epithet - a negatively-loaded bomb to be lobbed in partisan debates at people who you think are doing something very bad. Virtually every controversial policy could be described as, "Causing serious bodily or mental harm to" some group.
        dirtyid 3y ago
        The definition, US propaganda under Pompeo as head of State tried (and failed to meet), was UN's convention on genocide, which would trigger legal responses on member states. The TLDR is Pompeo laundered very tortured legal analysis through Zenz and some Gulanist Saudi think tank (IIRC) to try insinuate PRC met the definition when most credible international lawyers saw through the bullshit, but noted PRC actions closer to cultural genocide, which does NOT have definition at UN, and hence not prosecutable. The result is PRC actions merely labelled as potential human rights abuses at UN, aka business as usual, and a bunch of useful idiots who ate Pompeo's bait thinking PRC actually met the definition of genocide when it manifestly did not. And buy business as usual, of human rights abuses / cultural genocide, it puts PRC XJ actions in league with behaviours of the west. Hence you don't hear much about the XJ campaign anymore from western propaganda, because the propaganda was mostly useful if the genocide label stuck at UN, and made PRC actions more nefarious not equal to west. Now it's mostly used by US to justify XJ sanctions and trying to partners onboard to cripple XJ industry like solar, cotton, agriculture.
  - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
    "-cide" is a suffix that means "to kill," as in: * suicide * regicide * fratricide * insecticide * pesticide It comes from the Latin word "caedo," which means "to kill." The phrase "cultural genocide" is not the same as "genocide," and indeed the legal definition of "genocide" expliticly says that destruction of a culture is not genocide. Using the word "genocide" to refer to something other than mass murder - and then falling back to the claim that "genocide" doesn't mean mass murder - is just playing rhetorical games.
- last_responder 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - jxramos 3y ago
    what? > cidium "act of killing," from caedere "to kill, to cut down" (from PIE root *kae-id- "to strike"). https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=homocide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=homocide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fratricide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fratricide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suicide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suicide lots of others
    - jdkee 3y ago
      Wrong. See https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-...
      - jxramos 3y ago
        Interesting, so I think you're trying to draw attention to Article II yes? """ Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. """ I wouldn't recognize this as a dictionary definition but rather a legal document outlaying its premises and defining its terms. All but item b I'd argue are a form of killing, the ending of the demographic line either immediately or incrementally. You have to look at all these definitions in terms of the ultimate end being sought after by the perpetrators and these five categories are all means of doing so. The only stretch definition is b which I imagine is a much slower form of destruction. It's still a necessary clause though because imagine a dictator amputating the hands of all members of some group and claiming they didn't kill them therefore they didn't commit genocide. That would be a fraudulent claim because they effectively severely debilitated their ability to provide for themselves and function, they severely wounded that group so that one wouldn't be surprised if they did wind up dying and not thriving some time later on account of that action through indirect causes directly tied to that original offense. It's not an ancient word however, apparently it's a 20th century construction coined by Raphael Lemkin. """ He decided to create a name for the crime without a name. He came up with genocide, which he defined as the destruction of a nation or an ethnic group. He said he created the word by combining the ancient Greek word genos (race, tribe) and the Latin cide (killing). """ https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-genocide-come#:~:text=He%20decided%20to%20create%20a%20name%20for%20the%20crime%20without%20a%20name.%20He%20came%20up%20with%C2%A0genocide%2C%20which%20he%20defined%20as%20the%20destruction%20of%20a%20nation%20or%20an%20ethnic%20group.%20He%20said%20he%20created%20the%20word%20by%20combining%20the%20ancient%20Greek%20word%C2%A0genos%C2%A0(race%2C%20tribe)%20and%20the%20Latin%C2%A0cide%C2%A0(killing) https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-geno.... The book he coined the word was authored in 1944, the UN convention was signed in 1948 https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention..., very close in time and I'd say complimentary but still a legal document meant to get in writing specific means of destruction for that genos. So it's a emphasis on the means, not the end, and I'd say an equivalent definition is intentionally causing the end of a collective bloodline however that end may be accomplished.
mistermann 3y ago
> Why do you say it's 99% propaganda? I suspect because of propaganda.

ineptech 3y ago

I understand where you're coming from, but -cide implies killing.

KptMarchewa 3y ago
Of a nation or ethnic group.
ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
the "cide" in genocide refers to destroying for example, a cultural genocide refers to destroying culture, e.g. Uighur or Muslim culture
- woooooo 3y ago
  Would you say the choice of the word "genocide" here is because it's the most accurate description of what's going on? Or is it chosen for rhetorical/propaganda effect without too much concern for accuracy?
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    Would you say the common, accurate usage of the term "cultural genocide" to refer to what the term refers to, is a bigger or smaller problem than the actual cultural genocide itself?
  - mayormcmatt 3y ago
    Not the person you're responding to, but it is an accurate description of genocide under its current meaning as defined by the UN (probably the most authoritative body on this kind of matter). https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml What the Chinese are doing there is covered under Article II, c. If you are being pedantic by holding fast to the literal Greek translation of "geno" and "cide" then, well, this is simply not the complete modern meaning of the term.
    - woooooo 3y ago
      That article IIc pivots on the key phrase "physical destruction". Look, internment isnt good either, why dig in your heels on the most loaded possible word?
      - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        physical destruction, internment, cultural genocide, they are all happening why not focus on that, rather than your personal, individual dislike of a term? why dig your heels in on the semantics of the thing, rather than the substance?
        goodgrieving 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - ineptech 3y ago
      There is no authoritative body on the definitions of words. More generally, if genocide can mean "not killling, but very bad" then it is not much use except as an epithet - a negatively-loaded bomb to be lobbed in partisan debates at people who you think are doing something very bad. Virtually every controversial policy could be described as, "Causing serious bodily or mental harm to" some group.
      - dirtyid 3y ago
        The definition, US propaganda under Pompeo as head of State tried (and failed to meet), was UN's convention on genocide, which would trigger legal responses on member states. The TLDR is Pompeo laundered very tortured legal analysis through Zenz and some Gulanist Saudi think tank (IIRC) to try insinuate PRC met the definition when most credible international lawyers saw through the bullshit, but noted PRC actions closer to cultural genocide, which does NOT have definition at UN, and hence not prosecutable. The result is PRC actions merely labelled as potential human rights abuses at UN, aka business as usual, and a bunch of useful idiots who ate Pompeo's bait thinking PRC actually met the definition of genocide when it manifestly did not. And buy business as usual, of human rights abuses / cultural genocide, it puts PRC XJ actions in league with behaviours of the west. Hence you don't hear much about the XJ campaign anymore from western propaganda, because the propaganda was mostly useful if the genocide label stuck at UN, and made PRC actions more nefarious not equal to west. Now it's mostly used by US to justify XJ sanctions and trying to partners onboard to cripple XJ industry like solar, cotton, agriculture.
- DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
  "-cide" is a suffix that means "to kill," as in: * suicide * regicide * fratricide * insecticide * pesticide It comes from the Latin word "caedo," which means "to kill." The phrase "cultural genocide" is not the same as "genocide," and indeed the legal definition of "genocide" expliticly says that destruction of a culture is not genocide. Using the word "genocide" to refer to something other than mass murder - and then falling back to the claim that "genocide" doesn't mean mass murder - is just playing rhetorical games.
last_responder 3y ago
[flagged]
- jxramos 3y ago
  what? > cidium "act of killing," from caedere "to kill, to cut down" (from PIE root *kae-id- "to strike"). https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=homocide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=homocide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fratricide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fratricide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suicide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suicide lots of others
  - jdkee 3y ago
    Wrong. See https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-...
    - jxramos 3y ago
      Interesting, so I think you're trying to draw attention to Article II yes? """ Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. """ I wouldn't recognize this as a dictionary definition but rather a legal document outlaying its premises and defining its terms. All but item b I'd argue are a form of killing, the ending of the demographic line either immediately or incrementally. You have to look at all these definitions in terms of the ultimate end being sought after by the perpetrators and these five categories are all means of doing so. The only stretch definition is b which I imagine is a much slower form of destruction. It's still a necessary clause though because imagine a dictator amputating the hands of all members of some group and claiming they didn't kill them therefore they didn't commit genocide. That would be a fraudulent claim because they effectively severely debilitated their ability to provide for themselves and function, they severely wounded that group so that one wouldn't be surprised if they did wind up dying and not thriving some time later on account of that action through indirect causes directly tied to that original offense. It's not an ancient word however, apparently it's a 20th century construction coined by Raphael Lemkin. """ He decided to create a name for the crime without a name. He came up with genocide, which he defined as the destruction of a nation or an ethnic group. He said he created the word by combining the ancient Greek word genos (race, tribe) and the Latin cide (killing). """ https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-genocide-come#:~:text=He%20decided%20to%20create%20a%20name%20for%20the%20crime%20without%20a%20name.%20He%20came%20up%20with%C2%A0genocide%2C%20which%20he%20defined%20as%20the%20destruction%20of%20a%20nation%20or%20an%20ethnic%20group.%20He%20said%20he%20created%20the%20word%20by%20combining%20the%20ancient%20Greek%20word%C2%A0genos%C2%A0(race%2C%20tribe)%20and%20the%20Latin%C2%A0cide%C2%A0(killing) https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-geno.... The book he coined the word was authored in 1944, the UN convention was signed in 1948 https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention..., very close in time and I'd say complimentary but still a legal document meant to get in writing specific means of destruction for that genos. So it's a emphasis on the means, not the end, and I'd say an equivalent definition is intentionally causing the end of a collective bloodline however that end may be accomplished.

mistermann 3y ago

> Why do you say it's 99% propaganda? I suspect because of propaganda.