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Exactly. This is the period when Muslim ethnic groups like the Uigurs were being rounded up on any pretense to be reeducated into not wanting to be separatists

Exactly. This is the period when Muslim ethnic groups like the Uigurs were being rounded up on any pretense to be reeducated into not wanting to be separatists anymore (often with no indication that they had anything to do with separatism other than their ethnicity.) Seeing the VPN pop up was more than enough of an excuse. Calling it a "genocide" is 99% propaganda, but it was obviously a sinofication meant to get rid of separatist identities and cultures, and a horrible injustice. In the beginning, they were inspired and immunized by the US's anti-Muslim fervor during the GWB invasions (we were not only not criticizing, but probably even sharing intelligence with China.)

matchapples 3y ago
Why do you say it's 99% propaganda? "sinofication" sounds a lot like "eliminating the existing culture" which sounds a lot like genocide. Genocide is more than just murdering everyone like in some of the most well known cases like the Holocaust -- it includes elimination of an ethnic group by any means possible, including "nativification"
- ineptech 3y ago
  I understand where you're coming from, but -cide implies killing.
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    Of a nation or ethnic group.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    the "cide" in genocide refers to destroying for example, a cultural genocide refers to destroying culture, e.g. Uighur or Muslim culture
    - woooooo 3y ago
      Would you say the choice of the word "genocide" here is because it's the most accurate description of what's going on? Or is it chosen for rhetorical/propaganda effect without too much concern for accuracy?
      - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        Would you say the common, accurate usage of the term "cultural genocide" to refer to what the term refers to, is a bigger or smaller problem than the actual cultural genocide itself?
      - mayormcmatt 3y ago
        Not the person you're responding to, but it is an accurate description of genocide under its current meaning as defined by the UN (probably the most authoritative body on this kind of matter). https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml What the Chinese are doing there is covered under Article II, c. If you are being pedantic by holding fast to the literal Greek translation of "geno" and "cide" then, well, this is simply not the complete modern meaning of the term.
        woooooo 3y ago
        That article IIc pivots on the key phrase "physical destruction". Look, internment isnt good either, why dig in your heels on the most loaded possible word?
        ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        physical destruction, internment, cultural genocide, they are all happening why not focus on that, rather than your personal, individual dislike of a term? why dig your heels in on the semantics of the thing, rather than the substance?
        goodgrieving 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
      "-cide" is a suffix that means "to kill," as in: * suicide * regicide * fratricide * insecticide * pesticide It comes from the Latin word "caedo," which means "to kill." The phrase "cultural genocide" is not the same as "genocide," and indeed the legal definition of "genocide" expliticly says that destruction of a culture is not genocide. Using the word "genocide" to refer to something other than mass murder - and then falling back to the claim that "genocide" doesn't mean mass murder - is just playing rhetorical games.
  - last_responder 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - jxramos 3y ago
      what? > cidium "act of killing," from caedere "to kill, to cut down" (from PIE root *kae-id- "to strike"). https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=homocide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=homocide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fratricide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fratricide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suicide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suicide lots of others
      - jdkee 3y ago
        Wrong. See https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-...
        jxramos 3y ago
        Interesting, so I think you're trying to draw attention to Article II yes? """ Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. """ I wouldn't recognize this as a dictionary definition but rather a legal document outlaying its premises and defining its terms. All but item b I'd argue are a form of killing, the ending of the demographic line either immediately or incrementally. You have to look at all these definitions in terms of the ultimate end being sought after by the perpetrators and these five categories are all means of doing so. The only stretch definition is b which I imagine is a much slower form of destruction. It's still a necessary clause though because imagine a dictator amputating the hands of all members of some group and claiming they didn't kill them therefore they didn't commit genocide. That would be a fraudulent claim because they effectively severely debilitated their ability to provide for themselves and function, they severely wounded that group so that one wouldn't be surprised if they did wind up dying and not thriving some time later on account of that action through indirect causes directly tied to that original offense. It's not an ancient word however, apparently it's a 20th century construction coined by Raphael Lemkin. """ He decided to create a name for the crime without a name. He came up with genocide, which he defined as the destruction of a nation or an ethnic group. He said he created the word by combining the ancient Greek word genos (race, tribe) and the Latin cide (killing). """ https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-genocide-come#:~:text=He%20decided%20to%20create%20a%20name%20for%20the%20crime%20without%20a%20name.%20He%20came%20up%20with%C2%A0genocide%2C%20which%20he%20defined%20as%20the%20destruction%20of%20a%20nation%20or%20an%20ethnic%20group.%20He%20said%20he%20created%20the%20word%20by%20combining%20the%20ancient%20Greek%20word%C2%A0genos%C2%A0(race%2C%20tribe)%20and%20the%20Latin%C2%A0cide%C2%A0(killing) https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-geno.... The book he coined the word was authored in 1944, the UN convention was signed in 1948 https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention..., very close in time and I'd say complimentary but still a legal document meant to get in writing specific means of destruction for that genos. So it's a emphasis on the means, not the end, and I'd say an equivalent definition is intentionally causing the end of a collective bloodline however that end may be accomplished.
- mistermann 3y ago
  > Why do you say it's 99% propaganda? I suspect because of propaganda.
l3mure 3y ago
> In the beginning, they were inspired and immunized by the US's anti-Muslim fervor during the GWB invasions (we were not only not criticizing, but probably even sharing intelligence with China.) Yeah, seems to be overlooked quite a lot since it's convenient for the US narrative lately. > Starting in 2002, the American government detained 22 Uyghurs in the Guantanamo Bay detainment camp. The last 3 Uyghur detainees, Yusef Abbas, Hajiakbar Abdulghupur and Saidullah Khalik, were released from Guantanamo on December 29, 2013, and later transferred to Slovakia. > None of the Uyghurs wanted to be returned to China. The United States declined to grant the Uyghurs political asylum, or to allow them parole, or even freedom on the Naval Base. > A May 2008 report by the Inspector General of the United States Department of Justice claimed that American military interrogators appeared to have collaborated with visiting Chinese officials at Guantánamo Bay to enact sleep deprivation of the Uyghur detainees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo...
onetokeoverthe 3y ago
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matchapples 3y ago

Why do you say it's 99% propaganda? "sinofication" sounds a lot like "eliminating the existing culture" which sounds a lot like genocide. Genocide is more than just murdering everyone like in some of the most well known cases like the Holocaust -- it includes elimination of an ethnic group by any means possible, including "nativification"

ineptech 3y ago
I understand where you're coming from, but -cide implies killing.
- KptMarchewa 3y ago
  Of a nation or ethnic group.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  the "cide" in genocide refers to destroying for example, a cultural genocide refers to destroying culture, e.g. Uighur or Muslim culture
  - woooooo 3y ago
    Would you say the choice of the word "genocide" here is because it's the most accurate description of what's going on? Or is it chosen for rhetorical/propaganda effect without too much concern for accuracy?
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      Would you say the common, accurate usage of the term "cultural genocide" to refer to what the term refers to, is a bigger or smaller problem than the actual cultural genocide itself?
    - mayormcmatt 3y ago
      Not the person you're responding to, but it is an accurate description of genocide under its current meaning as defined by the UN (probably the most authoritative body on this kind of matter). https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml What the Chinese are doing there is covered under Article II, c. If you are being pedantic by holding fast to the literal Greek translation of "geno" and "cide" then, well, this is simply not the complete modern meaning of the term.
      - woooooo 3y ago
        That article IIc pivots on the key phrase "physical destruction". Look, internment isnt good either, why dig in your heels on the most loaded possible word?
        ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        physical destruction, internment, cultural genocide, they are all happening why not focus on that, rather than your personal, individual dislike of a term? why dig your heels in on the semantics of the thing, rather than the substance?
        goodgrieving 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
    "-cide" is a suffix that means "to kill," as in: * suicide * regicide * fratricide * insecticide * pesticide It comes from the Latin word "caedo," which means "to kill." The phrase "cultural genocide" is not the same as "genocide," and indeed the legal definition of "genocide" expliticly says that destruction of a culture is not genocide. Using the word "genocide" to refer to something other than mass murder - and then falling back to the claim that "genocide" doesn't mean mass murder - is just playing rhetorical games.
- last_responder 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - jxramos 3y ago
    what? > cidium "act of killing," from caedere "to kill, to cut down" (from PIE root *kae-id- "to strike"). https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=homocide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=homocide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fratricide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fratricide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suicide https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=suicide lots of others
    - jdkee 3y ago
      Wrong. See https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-...
      - jxramos 3y ago
        Interesting, so I think you're trying to draw attention to Article II yes? """ Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. """ I wouldn't recognize this as a dictionary definition but rather a legal document outlaying its premises and defining its terms. All but item b I'd argue are a form of killing, the ending of the demographic line either immediately or incrementally. You have to look at all these definitions in terms of the ultimate end being sought after by the perpetrators and these five categories are all means of doing so. The only stretch definition is b which I imagine is a much slower form of destruction. It's still a necessary clause though because imagine a dictator amputating the hands of all members of some group and claiming they didn't kill them therefore they didn't commit genocide. That would be a fraudulent claim because they effectively severely debilitated their ability to provide for themselves and function, they severely wounded that group so that one wouldn't be surprised if they did wind up dying and not thriving some time later on account of that action through indirect causes directly tied to that original offense. It's not an ancient word however, apparently it's a 20th century construction coined by Raphael Lemkin. """ He decided to create a name for the crime without a name. He came up with genocide, which he defined as the destruction of a nation or an ethnic group. He said he created the word by combining the ancient Greek word genos (race, tribe) and the Latin cide (killing). """ https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-genocide-come#:~:text=He%20decided%20to%20create%20a%20name%20for%20the%20crime%20without%20a%20name.%20He%20came%20up%20with%C2%A0genocide%2C%20which%20he%20defined%20as%20the%20destruction%20of%20a%20nation%20or%20an%20ethnic%20group.%20He%20said%20he%20created%20the%20word%20by%20combining%20the%20ancient%20Greek%20word%C2%A0genos%C2%A0(race%2C%20tribe)%20and%20the%20Latin%C2%A0cide%C2%A0(killing) https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-geno.... The book he coined the word was authored in 1944, the UN convention was signed in 1948 https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention..., very close in time and I'd say complimentary but still a legal document meant to get in writing specific means of destruction for that genos. So it's a emphasis on the means, not the end, and I'd say an equivalent definition is intentionally causing the end of a collective bloodline however that end may be accomplished.
mistermann 3y ago
> Why do you say it's 99% propaganda? I suspect because of propaganda.

l3mure 3y ago

> In the beginning, they were inspired and immunized by the US's anti-Muslim fervor during the GWB invasions (we were not only not criticizing, but probably even sharing intelligence with China.) Yeah, seems to be overlooked quite a lot since it's convenient for the US narrative lately. > Starting in 2002, the American government detained 22 Uyghurs in the Guantanamo Bay detainment camp. The last 3 Uyghur detainees, Yusef Abbas, Hajiakbar Abdulghupur and Saidullah Khalik, were released from Guantanamo on December 29, 2013, and later transferred to Slovakia. > None of the Uyghurs wanted to be returned to China. The United States declined to grant the Uyghurs political asylum, or to allow them parole, or even freedom on the Naval Base. > A May 2008 report by the Inspector General of the United States Department of Justice claimed that American military interrogators appeared to have collaborated with visiting Chinese officials at Guantánamo Bay to enact sleep deprivation of the Uyghur detainees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_detainees_at_Guantanamo...

onetokeoverthe 3y ago

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