3 ms·

> Like what did fighting about this minor thing get us other than making people (conservatives) angry? "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" if we don't

> Like what did fighting about this minor thing get us other than making people (conservatives) angry? "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" if we don't fight about "minor things" then they'll continue to strip away rights until all the "minor" things together are a major thing. it surprises me that you have such a dismissive attitude towards the fight for equal rights since you self-identified as gay (i am also gay).

nerdjon 3y ago
Nothing about forcing someone to bake me a wedding cake or make a website for my wedding is moving the needle at all for equal rights when I could just as easily go to someone who would happily take my money. It never has. Maybe in 10-20 years when people stop giving a shit than sure, we can say they are clearly in the minority and we can have a different discussion. But we are not there. At best talking about this stuff is a distraction at worst it is actively moving us backwards. And I fear that we are on the worst side of things considering how drastically things have changed in the other direction in the last few years. The fact is we have to look at why after making so much progress we are regressing and I refuse to put all of that blame on the opposition when we picked the stupid battles like cakes. Frankly at this point in time I don't give a rats ass about someone baking a cake or making a website when trans kids can't get the healthcare that they need and we have schools across this country trying to erase queer identities. Also the issues with many of the racial books being removed from school. This is not the issue we should be talking about and never was.
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  Except you're missing the forest for the trees. These cases are used to deny rights to trans people as well as gay people. The religious right to discriminate is used to hammer down all minorities. The fact that you're blaming the victim of the case is really quite absurd. You can't fathom that each of these smaller actions comes together to make a body of argument against the rights of minorities to exist. They're already doing this to excise transgender healthcare by claiming that they have a free speech right to not treat them. And again I encourage you to actually read this case before you respond, though I doubt you will. The people that brought this case forward literally made up a gay couple so they could have an argument against needing to serve them [1]. This isn't us picking a bad argument, this is systematic dismantling of our rights by bad faith actors. [1] https://newrepublic.com/article/173987/mysterious-case-fake-gay-marriage-website-real-straight-man-supreme-court https://newrepublic.com/article/173987/mysterious-case-fake-...
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    Nowhere here am I referring to this specific case and I feel like I have made it very clear that I am talking about the past. Especially given that I mentioned cakes. The cases involving people not baking cakes or a photographer to the best my my knowledge were real cases. So while we can explain this one away we can't explain those other cases away unless you can tell me those were fake also. I can't find proof that they were. I am simply saying that something happened. Something caused things to go so far in the other direction after a lot of progress. We can stand up and say "trump", "desantis", or whatever else other thing that will make make us be able to point the blame somewhere else but that isn't helpful! If we don't actually look at this and recognize possible mistakes along the way we are doomed to fail. That isn't vicim blaming. We are in a horrible situation right now and we are continuing on a worse trend, we cannot afford to not have these hard discussions.
  - vbumbc 3y ago
    > These cases are used to deny rights to trans people as well as gay people. That's not really true though, in the USA there are no rights being denied to either group. This has been the case since the Supreme Court ruled for marriage equality in 2015.

nerdjon 3y ago

Nothing about forcing someone to bake me a wedding cake or make a website for my wedding is moving the needle at all for equal rights when I could just as easily go to someone who would happily take my money. It never has. Maybe in 10-20 years when people stop giving a shit than sure, we can say they are clearly in the minority and we can have a different discussion. But we are not there. At best talking about this stuff is a distraction at worst it is actively moving us backwards. And I fear that we are on the worst side of things considering how drastically things have changed in the other direction in the last few years. The fact is we have to look at why after making so much progress we are regressing and I refuse to put all of that blame on the opposition when we picked the stupid battles like cakes. Frankly at this point in time I don't give a rats ass about someone baking a cake or making a website when trans kids can't get the healthcare that they need and we have schools across this country trying to erase queer identities. Also the issues with many of the racial books being removed from school. This is not the issue we should be talking about and never was.

fzeroracer 3y ago
Except you're missing the forest for the trees. These cases are used to deny rights to trans people as well as gay people. The religious right to discriminate is used to hammer down all minorities. The fact that you're blaming the victim of the case is really quite absurd. You can't fathom that each of these smaller actions comes together to make a body of argument against the rights of minorities to exist. They're already doing this to excise transgender healthcare by claiming that they have a free speech right to not treat them. And again I encourage you to actually read this case before you respond, though I doubt you will. The people that brought this case forward literally made up a gay couple so they could have an argument against needing to serve them [1]. This isn't us picking a bad argument, this is systematic dismantling of our rights by bad faith actors. [1] https://newrepublic.com/article/173987/mysterious-case-fake-gay-marriage-website-real-straight-man-supreme-court https://newrepublic.com/article/173987/mysterious-case-fake-...
- nerdjon 3y ago
  Nowhere here am I referring to this specific case and I feel like I have made it very clear that I am talking about the past. Especially given that I mentioned cakes. The cases involving people not baking cakes or a photographer to the best my my knowledge were real cases. So while we can explain this one away we can't explain those other cases away unless you can tell me those were fake also. I can't find proof that they were. I am simply saying that something happened. Something caused things to go so far in the other direction after a lot of progress. We can stand up and say "trump", "desantis", or whatever else other thing that will make make us be able to point the blame somewhere else but that isn't helpful! If we don't actually look at this and recognize possible mistakes along the way we are doomed to fail. That isn't vicim blaming. We are in a horrible situation right now and we are continuing on a worse trend, we cannot afford to not have these hard discussions.
- vbumbc 3y ago
  > These cases are used to deny rights to trans people as well as gay people. That's not really true though, in the USA there are no rights being denied to either group. This has been the case since the Supreme Court ruled for marriage equality in 2015.