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> We threw it all away for gifs and centralization! Simpler configuration, easy voice chat and screen share, simpler administration, user accounts and profile

by 542458 3y ago

> We threw it all away for gifs and centralization! Simpler configuration, easy voice chat and screen share, simpler administration, user accounts and profile pictures by default, visually appealing and more noob-friendly client, persistent chat history, media embeds, file uploads, rich presence, etc...

floren 3y ago
IRCv3 ticks a lot of boxes server-side; you get chat history, user accounts (you can even log with the same nick from multiple clients), replies, and a bunch of other stuff. Some clients show link/image previews. I think the #1 thing that would make them better would be configuration options to drag&drop/paste images and other files, and have those automatically uploaded to a user-configured service with a link dropped into the channel. Hassle to implement, though.
- welterde 3y ago
  Polari [1] seems to support automatically uploading images and text to some imagebin/pastebin and then posting the link to the channel. The Lounge [2] also supports it (with the files self-hosted in thelounge instance). [1] https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Polari https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Polari [2] https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/
anthk 3y ago
Jabber.
ComputerGuru 3y ago
All the open source Discord rooms I'm in, absolutely no one uses the voice chat and I didn't even know there was a screen sharing option. The ratio of users to admins is probably 10,000:1 so ease of admin isn't really an issue (see also reddit where mod tools suck). There are plenty of visually appealing clients (e.g. this one!). I personally think persistent message history (XMPP botched that rollout terribly) - which goes hand-in-hand with multipresence - and the extreme dearth of any - let alone actually good and usable - IRC (or XMPP) mobile clients (esp. on iOS) was the real reason they lost mainstream use. Multipresence is more than just a checkbox; doing it correctly involves actually setting up a SSO system with actual first-party user account support (not just relegating it as a stateful detail of the underlying IRC library you are using). IMHO actual account integration would have bound users more loyally to IRC and would have created more of a "network effect". Inline attachments, emoji reactions, etc are all just icing on the cake.
- jeltz 3y ago
  Not sure why you are downvoted because you I feel you are pretty much correct for many non-gamers. I do not use voice chat and it is not what made me start using Discord. But I still see why voice chat is very useful to many gamers. Different groups missed different features from IRC. Message history on the other hand is a huge Discord feature for me as is inline attachments (e.g. being able to post code snippets without having to use s pastebin).
  - ComputerGuru 3y ago
    I'm not sure either, but it's HN :) Native attachments support was personally a big thing for me (inline images or gifs.. not so much) but what I meant to say is that I think the ecosystem could have survived without it if that were the only issue - just look at how long Reddit went without any sort of image or video upload support. Ultimately and "at some point," attachment support would have "just happened" naturally. I just really think multi-presence w/ history and the lack of a good web or mobile client was the bigger deal. Unlike attachments which you can just staple on to the UI and squint at it the right way, these were actual, fundamental issues that required a rearchitecture (or even rewrite) of existing servers and clients, and despite how obvious their importance was (at least to some of us) the mainstream client/server options didn't really relish the idea or jump on board. I still vividly remember being locked out of a hacker space maybe seven years ago and needing to figure out how to get on the irc from my iPhone. I scoured the app store looking for a good (free) client for this one-time need I had and found nothing. I searched online and found a really shady, insecure, and ad-infested website that would open an IRC connection in the backend and then stream the text to your browser in an interface intended for desktop use. The interface was neigh impossible to use on a phone, all the UI bits were overlaid atop of one another, text wrapping was broken, etc. I was able to use this to post on the IRC channel and get someone to let me in, but every time I changed tabs or my phone timed out and turned off, the connection would be severed and I would have to start again.. and ask "sorry did anyone reply to my earlier message, I am logging in from a web frontend and was forced to refresh, I might have missed your reply if you did."
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ok123456 3y ago
> Simpler configuration Never had an IRC server want to verify me through SMS or FORCE me to update my client. > simpler administration IRC is just a ban list, an except list and an invite list. > user accounts and profile pictures by default Don't want it. > persistent chat history Liability.
- Filligree 3y ago
  > Never had an IRC server want to verify me through SMS or FORCE me to update my client. Which destroyed several channels through spam. The authentication is a feature.
  - ok123456 3y ago
    You can do authentication without something that's tantamount to someone's government ID. I love when companies make me give them my phone number, and then they get hacked.
- saulrh 3y ago
  > IRC is just a ban list, an except list and an invite list. Now use that to implement RBAC for a server with a hundred channels. Go ahead, I'll wait. Less pithily, IRC's built-in permissions may be simple, but they're so simple primarily because they're basically useless for real moderation tasks. Every IRC channel I've ever seen handles moderation with a mod-bot, and "set up a bot" instantly blows the complexity budget.
  - ok123456 3y ago
    > Now use that to implement RBAC for a server with a hundred channels. Don't want it.
- doublerabbit 3y ago
  > user accounts and profile pictures by default: Don't want it. You may not, but many others do, like myself. Lets be frank, IRC is boring without content. There is no easy way to share any imagery, videos. Any form of simplification of media hosting is a tragic mess. > Never had an IRC server want to verify me through SMS or FORCE me to update my client. NickServ. "If you don't register your nick in 1 minute you be renamed to "anonymous". I've been on networks where mIRC has been banned which is my client of choice.
MisterTea 3y ago
Discord is far from simple. Simple is a text based protocol I can interact with through a telnet session. A few channels have Matrix-IRC bridges attached so that is an option for servers who want to enable multiple interfaces for those who prefer not to interact with discord.
- Halfwhit 3y ago
  I completely agree with your definition of simple, but to less technically minded people Discord is simpler in that it's a "batteries included" experience

by 542458 3y ago

floren 3y ago

IRCv3 ticks a lot of boxes server-side; you get chat history, user accounts (you can even log with the same nick from multiple clients), replies, and a bunch of other stuff. Some clients show link/image previews. I think the #1 thing that would make them better would be configuration options to drag&drop/paste images and other files, and have those automatically uploaded to a user-configured service with a link dropped into the channel. Hassle to implement, though.

welterde 3y ago
Polari [1] seems to support automatically uploading images and text to some imagebin/pastebin and then posting the link to the channel. The Lounge [2] also supports it (with the files self-hosted in thelounge instance). [1] https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Polari https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Polari [2] https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/

anthk 3y ago

Jabber.

ComputerGuru 3y ago

All the open source Discord rooms I'm in, absolutely no one uses the voice chat and I didn't even know there was a screen sharing option. The ratio of users to admins is probably 10,000:1 so ease of admin isn't really an issue (see also reddit where mod tools suck). There are plenty of visually appealing clients (e.g. this one!). I personally think persistent message history (XMPP botched that rollout terribly) - which goes hand-in-hand with multipresence - and the extreme dearth of any - let alone actually good and usable - IRC (or XMPP) mobile clients (esp. on iOS) was the real reason they lost mainstream use. Multipresence is more than just a checkbox; doing it correctly involves actually setting up a SSO system with actual first-party user account support (not just relegating it as a stateful detail of the underlying IRC library you are using). IMHO actual account integration would have bound users more loyally to IRC and would have created more of a "network effect". Inline attachments, emoji reactions, etc are all just icing on the cake.

jeltz 3y ago
Not sure why you are downvoted because you I feel you are pretty much correct for many non-gamers. I do not use voice chat and it is not what made me start using Discord. But I still see why voice chat is very useful to many gamers. Different groups missed different features from IRC. Message history on the other hand is a huge Discord feature for me as is inline attachments (e.g. being able to post code snippets without having to use s pastebin).
- ComputerGuru 3y ago
  I'm not sure either, but it's HN :) Native attachments support was personally a big thing for me (inline images or gifs.. not so much) but what I meant to say is that I think the ecosystem could have survived without it if that were the only issue - just look at how long Reddit went without any sort of image or video upload support. Ultimately and "at some point," attachment support would have "just happened" naturally. I just really think multi-presence w/ history and the lack of a good web or mobile client was the bigger deal. Unlike attachments which you can just staple on to the UI and squint at it the right way, these were actual, fundamental issues that required a rearchitecture (or even rewrite) of existing servers and clients, and despite how obvious their importance was (at least to some of us) the mainstream client/server options didn't really relish the idea or jump on board. I still vividly remember being locked out of a hacker space maybe seven years ago and needing to figure out how to get on the irc from my iPhone. I scoured the app store looking for a good (free) client for this one-time need I had and found nothing. I searched online and found a really shady, insecure, and ad-infested website that would open an IRC connection in the backend and then stream the text to your browser in an interface intended for desktop use. The interface was neigh impossible to use on a phone, all the UI bits were overlaid atop of one another, text wrapping was broken, etc. I was able to use this to post on the IRC channel and get someone to let me in, but every time I changed tabs or my phone timed out and turned off, the connection would be severed and I would have to start again.. and ask "sorry did anyone reply to my earlier message, I am logging in from a web frontend and was forced to refresh, I might have missed your reply if you did."

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ok123456 3y ago

> Simpler configuration Never had an IRC server want to verify me through SMS or FORCE me to update my client. > simpler administration IRC is just a ban list, an except list and an invite list. > user accounts and profile pictures by default Don't want it. > persistent chat history Liability.

Filligree 3y ago
> Never had an IRC server want to verify me through SMS or FORCE me to update my client. Which destroyed several channels through spam. The authentication is a feature.
- ok123456 3y ago
  You can do authentication without something that's tantamount to someone's government ID. I love when companies make me give them my phone number, and then they get hacked.
saulrh 3y ago
> IRC is just a ban list, an except list and an invite list. Now use that to implement RBAC for a server with a hundred channels. Go ahead, I'll wait. Less pithily, IRC's built-in permissions may be simple, but they're so simple primarily because they're basically useless for real moderation tasks. Every IRC channel I've ever seen handles moderation with a mod-bot, and "set up a bot" instantly blows the complexity budget.
- ok123456 3y ago
  > Now use that to implement RBAC for a server with a hundred channels. Don't want it.
doublerabbit 3y ago
> user accounts and profile pictures by default: Don't want it. You may not, but many others do, like myself. Lets be frank, IRC is boring without content. There is no easy way to share any imagery, videos. Any form of simplification of media hosting is a tragic mess. > Never had an IRC server want to verify me through SMS or FORCE me to update my client. NickServ. "If you don't register your nick in 1 minute you be renamed to "anonymous". I've been on networks where mIRC has been banned which is my client of choice.

MisterTea 3y ago

Discord is far from simple. Simple is a text based protocol I can interact with through a telnet session. A few channels have Matrix-IRC bridges attached so that is an option for servers who want to enable multiple interfaces for those who prefer not to interact with discord.

Halfwhit 3y ago
I completely agree with your definition of simple, but to less technically minded people Discord is simpler in that it's a "batteries included" experience