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Agreed that education costs should be driven down, but the strain on borrowers is very real. It's bothersome that the government prohibits relief in the form of

Agreed that education costs should be driven down, but the strain on borrowers is very real. It's bothersome that the government prohibits relief in the form of bankruptcy. It's easy to be unsympathetic when something doesn't impact you personally. I'm not impacted by student loans, but I've heard enough stories from close friends to give me pause. I am very empathetic to their plight and worry we have knee capped a sizeable portion of a generation, which will impact the economy and society as well.

qup 3y ago
I chose to become a self-taught developer, vs going to school, to avoid having student loans plague me. I weighed the options and didn't like the math. The two paths were hard forks. It was a big decision. I'm still "paying" the price in the form of reduced wages, surely. Student loans weren't a great option, so I didn't take them. Why does everyone else take them, and then pass the blame and responsibility to the government?
- fullstop 3y ago
  Do you feel the same way about disaster relief, since you chose not to live that area? I haven't had student loans since the early 2000s and I'm fine with forgiving them or at least reducing interest rates to something very low.
  - qup 3y ago
    Yes, I do. I lived in an active hurricane zone for most of my life, fwiw, and half my family just got screwed in 2022. They've all variously moved away and come back. Hurricanes are a price you pay for coastal views. If I could put a beach in the landlocked state I live in now, it would probably generate incredible value. I haven't taken a position on loan forgiveness, I've only taken a position on people blaming others for their own choices.
    - fullstop 3y ago
      There's more than hurricanes, though. What of forest fires, floods, and tornadoes? You can't fault people for living within proximity of trees, rivers, and flat areas.
      - qup 3y ago
        Okay, how about California's forest fires? They've been in the news. I'm seeing a lot of fault being passed around like "hey, we should have been doing prescribed burns for hundreds of years". We've had lots and lots of forest fires. I won't be moving my family into the California wilderness. But I do live in a wild place, and a fire is a possibility. I pay for insurance to cover that, so I believe I'm footing my own bill as far as my own personal involvement. I wouldn't expect to receive a dime from anyone else; I never did during a hurricane.
        fullstop 3y ago
        > I wouldn't expect to receive a dime from anyone else; I never did during a hurricane. You did, though, indirectly. Federal funds were used in lieu of state funds (your taxes). In essence, I paid for some of your cleanup. I agree that you didn't receive a personal check from the federal government, but you did benefit from their action. Even your insurance is done with this method -- you pay an insurance premium which is far less than what would be paid out in the event that your house burned to the ground. If we're using the same insurance company, my premiums go toward that as well.
        qup 3y ago
        Okay, but does that come back around and lead you to believe that's the same as paying back loans that individuals took of their own volition? I walked into your trap, you got me--my region received hurricane funds. So now we should pay Chad's student loan back even though Chad said he'd do that himself? Huh?
        fullstop 3y ago
- NeuNeurosis 3y ago
  Because the math you were forced to do was caused by very specific policy decisions at the government level that radically changed how schools were publicly funded directly(lower costs to all students) to one where it is "public funding" but private risk by student loans that drove up perverse incentives to bloat school bureaucracy and lower the educational standards and raise costs. https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year While you were in a position to make a certain career decision due to the field you wanted to go into (tech), other field require schooling. For example medicine doesn't have on the job training that allows one to be a nurse, radiology tech, respiratory tech, dr, surgeon and so forth. Do you want there to be even less of those people? What about accountants? What about engineers? Should they just "teach themselves". The idea was that all these roles are publicly beneficial and we used to recognize that. The "Policy" of student loans was a government decision and directly created this problem and it is what needs to change to solve it.
  - infamouscow 3y ago
    I don't think the people that took out degrees leading into medicine, law, accounting, or tech are the ones struggling to repay their loans. The people struggling to repay their loans are those that have degrees with little or no economic value. The main criticism from blue-collared voters on student loan forgiveness is the moral hazard of allowing students to take out loans for degrees with virtually no economic value. Of course, this criticism was completely ignored by the college educated elite whom refuse to entertain the idea a degree needs to have a measurable ROI. There are many other factors that play into this, but this is the crux of the matter.
    - NeuNeurosis 3y ago
      Interesting that the top major of student loan holders is Nursing https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major Also student loans and the funding of education and the artificial scarcity and perverse incentives that it produces is one of the direct causes of the shortage of medical professionals of all stripes in the US. https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/lawmakers-fixes-healthcare-workforce-shortages/642994/ https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/lawmakers-fixes-healthca... As the OP that I responded to argued, the risk of loans prevented him from pursuing a degree. That risk most definitely plays apart in prospective medical students deciding to enter the field because if they fail at any point in that journey they are directly responsible for a ungodly huge sum of money. Also the moral hazard argument is a red herring to rage bait the blue collar segment of the population and disregards the breadth of actual majors of student loan holders. And secondly it still does nothing to address the actual government policy decision that gave rise to this problem. The policy of student loan (public and individual student risk) vs direct public funding (public and institutional risk).
- soderfoo 3y ago
  Government policy, however well intentioned, created this system of incentives to encourage and boost college enrollment. Further exacerbating the problem are special intrest groups (lenders and schools) who salivated at the thought of a blank check from the feds. I think it's silly to view this in a way that generates ill feelings for folks who pursued education. The blame falls on the government, lenders and schools. They should bear the cost of any forgiveness.
sanderjd 3y ago
It's important to remember when talking to friends, that people are the heroes of their own stories and have a naturally biased perspective. For my entire twenties, I could have been one of your friends complaining about the burden of my student loans. Nowadays I complain about the burden of my mortgage. But in both cases I got loans for valuable things on very reasonable terms. Just because I feel personally burdened does not mean it's a crisis for society. It also doesn't mean nothing should ever be done. Personally I think income based repayment is a great policy. Maybe we should make that more generous for its current beneficiaries can't afford housing or families at its current level (anecdotally that wasn't the case for my friends who took advantage of the program, but it's a statistical question and I don't know the answer). But many people seem to act like blanket forgiveness is the only workable or fair policy, and I'm just not convinced.
- oddtuple 3y ago
  Here’s some research showing loan forgiveness would be a net boon on the economy https://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/rpr_2_6.pdf https://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/rpr_2_6.pdf
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    Interesting! But my criticism is not based on whether or not it would be a boon or a hindrance to the economy...
    - oddtuple 3y ago
      what would it take, quantitatively, to alleviate any concerns with this policy of forgiveness?
      - sanderjd 3y ago
        Unfortunately it would require knowledge of the future. My concern with the policy is that I believe it creates perverse incentives that encourage a continuing spiral of more costly higher education, resulting in more debt, and unpredictable periodic political battles over "one-time" forgiveness. If you could come back from the future and say "that didn't happen, instead it gave college graduates the breathing room they needed to become politically engaged and they successfully pushed for permanent solutions to the problem of increasing costs and debt", then I'd be happy to take the L! Or perhaps if you could find an analogous country where a one-time blanket forgiveness led to more foundational improvements to the financing of higher education in that country, that would help alleviate my concerns. But barring that analogous country that already did this (which I don't think exists because, as you've noted, our current system is weird and different than how it works elsewhere), I don't think there's a quantitative answer to this question, because that's just not where my concern lies.

qup 3y ago

I chose to become a self-taught developer, vs going to school, to avoid having student loans plague me. I weighed the options and didn't like the math. The two paths were hard forks. It was a big decision. I'm still "paying" the price in the form of reduced wages, surely. Student loans weren't a great option, so I didn't take them. Why does everyone else take them, and then pass the blame and responsibility to the government?

fullstop 3y ago
Do you feel the same way about disaster relief, since you chose not to live that area? I haven't had student loans since the early 2000s and I'm fine with forgiving them or at least reducing interest rates to something very low.
- qup 3y ago
  Yes, I do. I lived in an active hurricane zone for most of my life, fwiw, and half my family just got screwed in 2022. They've all variously moved away and come back. Hurricanes are a price you pay for coastal views. If I could put a beach in the landlocked state I live in now, it would probably generate incredible value. I haven't taken a position on loan forgiveness, I've only taken a position on people blaming others for their own choices.
  - fullstop 3y ago
    There's more than hurricanes, though. What of forest fires, floods, and tornadoes? You can't fault people for living within proximity of trees, rivers, and flat areas.
    - qup 3y ago
      Okay, how about California's forest fires? They've been in the news. I'm seeing a lot of fault being passed around like "hey, we should have been doing prescribed burns for hundreds of years". We've had lots and lots of forest fires. I won't be moving my family into the California wilderness. But I do live in a wild place, and a fire is a possibility. I pay for insurance to cover that, so I believe I'm footing my own bill as far as my own personal involvement. I wouldn't expect to receive a dime from anyone else; I never did during a hurricane.
      - fullstop 3y ago
        > I wouldn't expect to receive a dime from anyone else; I never did during a hurricane. You did, though, indirectly. Federal funds were used in lieu of state funds (your taxes). In essence, I paid for some of your cleanup. I agree that you didn't receive a personal check from the federal government, but you did benefit from their action. Even your insurance is done with this method -- you pay an insurance premium which is far less than what would be paid out in the event that your house burned to the ground. If we're using the same insurance company, my premiums go toward that as well.
        qup 3y ago
        Okay, but does that come back around and lead you to believe that's the same as paying back loans that individuals took of their own volition? I walked into your trap, you got me--my region received hurricane funds. So now we should pay Chad's student loan back even though Chad said he'd do that himself? Huh?
        fullstop 3y ago
NeuNeurosis 3y ago
Because the math you were forced to do was caused by very specific policy decisions at the government level that radically changed how schools were publicly funded directly(lower costs to all students) to one where it is "public funding" but private risk by student loans that drove up perverse incentives to bloat school bureaucracy and lower the educational standards and raise costs. https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year While you were in a position to make a certain career decision due to the field you wanted to go into (tech), other field require schooling. For example medicine doesn't have on the job training that allows one to be a nurse, radiology tech, respiratory tech, dr, surgeon and so forth. Do you want there to be even less of those people? What about accountants? What about engineers? Should they just "teach themselves". The idea was that all these roles are publicly beneficial and we used to recognize that. The "Policy" of student loans was a government decision and directly created this problem and it is what needs to change to solve it.
- infamouscow 3y ago
  I don't think the people that took out degrees leading into medicine, law, accounting, or tech are the ones struggling to repay their loans. The people struggling to repay their loans are those that have degrees with little or no economic value. The main criticism from blue-collared voters on student loan forgiveness is the moral hazard of allowing students to take out loans for degrees with virtually no economic value. Of course, this criticism was completely ignored by the college educated elite whom refuse to entertain the idea a degree needs to have a measurable ROI. There are many other factors that play into this, but this is the crux of the matter.
  - NeuNeurosis 3y ago
    Interesting that the top major of student loan holders is Nursing https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major Also student loans and the funding of education and the artificial scarcity and perverse incentives that it produces is one of the direct causes of the shortage of medical professionals of all stripes in the US. https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/lawmakers-fixes-healthcare-workforce-shortages/642994/ https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/lawmakers-fixes-healthca... As the OP that I responded to argued, the risk of loans prevented him from pursuing a degree. That risk most definitely plays apart in prospective medical students deciding to enter the field because if they fail at any point in that journey they are directly responsible for a ungodly huge sum of money. Also the moral hazard argument is a red herring to rage bait the blue collar segment of the population and disregards the breadth of actual majors of student loan holders. And secondly it still does nothing to address the actual government policy decision that gave rise to this problem. The policy of student loan (public and individual student risk) vs direct public funding (public and institutional risk).
soderfoo 3y ago
Government policy, however well intentioned, created this system of incentives to encourage and boost college enrollment. Further exacerbating the problem are special intrest groups (lenders and schools) who salivated at the thought of a blank check from the feds. I think it's silly to view this in a way that generates ill feelings for folks who pursued education. The blame falls on the government, lenders and schools. They should bear the cost of any forgiveness.

sanderjd 3y ago

It's important to remember when talking to friends, that people are the heroes of their own stories and have a naturally biased perspective. For my entire twenties, I could have been one of your friends complaining about the burden of my student loans. Nowadays I complain about the burden of my mortgage. But in both cases I got loans for valuable things on very reasonable terms. Just because I feel personally burdened does not mean it's a crisis for society. It also doesn't mean nothing should ever be done. Personally I think income based repayment is a great policy. Maybe we should make that more generous for its current beneficiaries can't afford housing or families at its current level (anecdotally that wasn't the case for my friends who took advantage of the program, but it's a statistical question and I don't know the answer). But many people seem to act like blanket forgiveness is the only workable or fair policy, and I'm just not convinced.

oddtuple 3y ago
Here’s some research showing loan forgiveness would be a net boon on the economy https://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/rpr_2_6.pdf https://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/rpr_2_6.pdf
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Interesting! But my criticism is not based on whether or not it would be a boon or a hindrance to the economy...
  - oddtuple 3y ago
    what would it take, quantitatively, to alleviate any concerns with this policy of forgiveness?
    - sanderjd 3y ago
      Unfortunately it would require knowledge of the future. My concern with the policy is that I believe it creates perverse incentives that encourage a continuing spiral of more costly higher education, resulting in more debt, and unpredictable periodic political battles over "one-time" forgiveness. If you could come back from the future and say "that didn't happen, instead it gave college graduates the breathing room they needed to become politically engaged and they successfully pushed for permanent solutions to the problem of increasing costs and debt", then I'd be happy to take the L! Or perhaps if you could find an analogous country where a one-time blanket forgiveness led to more foundational improvements to the financing of higher education in that country, that would help alleviate my concerns. But barring that analogous country that already did this (which I don't think exists because, as you've noted, our current system is weird and different than how it works elsewhere), I don't think there's a quantitative answer to this question, because that's just not where my concern lies.