5 ms·

Can't agree unfortunately. Taxes in Europe are about 40-50% of income for upper middle class + 20% VAT. Still sucks for young people. Even the healthcare syste

Can't agree unfortunately. Taxes in Europe are about 40-50% of income for upper middle class + 20% VAT. Still sucks for young people. Even the healthcare systems are going to crap now!

blitz_skull 3y ago
> going to crap now What do you mean? Last time I was in Europe, their healthcare wasn't the pinnacle of healthcare systems. Cheap? Sure. Effective? Not really.
- jdmoreira 3y ago
  Not sure what you mean by effective but life expectancy is really good in Europe so I can't really understand what other criteria you would apply.
- jackmott42 3y ago
  Much more effective than being the USA and having to do without because you can't pay.
  - blitz_skull 3y ago
    Who is "having to do without" because they can't pay? In the US you can't be refused life-saving healthcare.
    - masfuerte 3y ago
      Emergency treatment, sure. Something that will kill you in a year, not so much.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
      Right, which means perfectly preventable problems just plague you until they become catastrophic enough that they require life-saving care. The bare minimum of course.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      You can't be refused, but you can still be billed, and billed you will be.
    - analognoise 3y ago
      A country where people die because they ration things like insulin, with a life expectancy a decade lower than Europe, an infant mortality rate higher than Cuba, and the largest amount of bankruptcies over medical debt... You can absolutely be refused care until you die in the USA. Sure at the very end if you stumble to a hospital they'll put on a good show as they find out you're uninsured and you didn't take an ambulance because it was on average thousands of dollars, and you didn't go to a doctor because you knew you couldn't afford it... People die here all the time from lack of care. Our systems suck and are way broken.
      - UtopiaPunk 3y ago
        Just as an aside, Cuba's healthcare system kind of rules, especially given their place in the world. It's so good they practically have a surplus they use in trade. Like, they'll send doctors or medicines to other third world countries the US hates or ignores in exchange for oil or whatever. People tout how amazing it was USA could make covid vaccines so quickly, but Cuba did that too (while under trade embargos from the USA). It's impressive.
    - jjav 3y ago
      > Who is "having to do without" because they can't pay? A very large segment of the poor and even middle class in the US who work jobs that don't provide insurance. > In the US you can't be refused life-saving healthcare. You're probably thinking of emergency room care for immediately life-threatening accidents. For those yes, the emergency room is required to stabilize you in the short term. You'll be billed for it of course, causing bankrupcy if you had any money. But if you have advanced diabetes or cancer or any other life-ending conditions that aren't going to kill you right now, you will not get any treatment in the US if you can't pay for it so you can be left to die. Some states are better than others with options for the poor, but many are atrocious.
- Woeps 3y ago
  Have we gone to the same Europe? Because across 3 different European countries I have seen the complete opposite.
  - blitz_skull 3y ago
    Did you have to schedule a visit 2 weeks out just to get some medicine for a minor sinus infection? (Medicine you could've gotten in the US for a $15-dollar copay and a 30 minute wait in a urgent care clinic) Because I did. Belgium's healthcare was no bueno for a foreign exchange student just looking to kick a cold.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Woeps 3y ago
      I have been living in Brussels for last 10 years and have had no such issues. Au contraire, I go to the doctor and get medication so easily prescribed that I'm afraid the doctor is to nonchalant ... (and always without an appointment, maybe sometimes 20 min wait) Edit: regarding Sinus infections, quick google search shows that the "apotheek" carries and sells medicine for this.. so maybe you just had bad luck/was misunderstood?
    - Tade0 3y ago
      Let's just say that Belgium, collectively as a nation, needs a hug. I hail from a country with the lowest number of practicing physicians per 1000 inhabitants in the EU and I still can get an appointment with a general practitioner on the same day. Specialists are of course a different matter but again - lowest number of doctors in the EU. They're all in Norway now.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - UtopiaPunk 3y ago
      Lmao. I'm in the US, and I'm waiting to see a doctor because the earliest someone could see me was 2 months is away (and that was checking across several nearby towns, not being picky about one particular doctor's schedule). I thought that was pretty good, because scheduling our last an annual check up was much further out.
- easywood 3y ago
  Unfortunately the level of knowledge on the subject is quite apparent when somebody speaks about "the" European healthcare. I'm sure the doctors spoke European too.
  - blitz_skull 3y ago
    Unfortunately, European is not a language. But the mindset of socialist healthcare is distinctly European. That’s what this discussion is about, all pedantry aside. The “European” model varies from country to country, sure. But the overall mindset behind it does not.
marginalia_nu 3y ago
Income tax isn't going to solve this, and I think it's unfortunate Europe tends to very myopically focus on income differences. Progressive income tax does little other than to widen the gap between wage slaves and the rich. The wealthiest don't have an absurdly high income, they own enough assets to live off dividends and wealth appreciation, which typically gets taxed 20-30%. If they even have an income to be taxed, it's basically symbolic. This is where the real inequality exists, and it's unfortunately not part of the discussion at all. Instead wagies with slightly higher than average income get portrayed as 18th century mustache twisting top-hat capitalist factory owners.
- jdmoreira 3y ago
  agree with everything you said. I absolutely despise the income tax. You literally have no path to wealth in Europe by being an employee, in fact if you are a top performer as an employee you are most likely carrying a huge load of the rest of society on your back. Meanwhile wealth gets taxed much lower (when it gets taxed at all)
  - soco 3y ago
    I cannot picture having a path to wealth as an employee. I mean I'm struggling to even conceptualize this. Do you have actual expectations to get on this path? Or maybe we define differently "wealth"... You can definitely have a fine life as an employee (although that gets eroded too, inequality growing everywhere and former middle class gets pushed down), but to be wealthy that was always another category altogether.
    - markc 3y ago
      There is a viable path from (upper?)-middle class to early retirement that is built mostly out of hardcore discipline, willingness to delay gratification, and some luck. The idea is to live well below your means, be "frugal", and pound every spare dollar into tax advantaged retirement accounts (first) then your own aggressive growth equities. Get a bonus? The whole thing goes to your brokerage, have a stock plan at work? Max it. Since this mild form of FIRE may take 30+ years, you should invest aggressively in equities (risk decreases with longer time horizon) and possibly buy some rental properties along the way. IMO this gives the best probability (though no guarantee) of retiring financially independent before age 60.

Can't agree unfortunately. Taxes in Europe are about 40-50% of income for upper middle class + 20% VAT. Still sucks for young people. Even the healthcare systems are going to crap now!

blitz_skull 3y ago

> going to crap now What do you mean? Last time I was in Europe, their healthcare wasn't the pinnacle of healthcare systems. Cheap? Sure. Effective? Not really.

jdmoreira 3y ago
Not sure what you mean by effective but life expectancy is really good in Europe so I can't really understand what other criteria you would apply.
jackmott42 3y ago
Much more effective than being the USA and having to do without because you can't pay.
- blitz_skull 3y ago
  Who is "having to do without" because they can't pay? In the US you can't be refused life-saving healthcare.
  - masfuerte 3y ago
    Emergency treatment, sure. Something that will kill you in a year, not so much.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
    Right, which means perfectly preventable problems just plague you until they become catastrophic enough that they require life-saving care. The bare minimum of course.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    You can't be refused, but you can still be billed, and billed you will be.
  - analognoise 3y ago
    A country where people die because they ration things like insulin, with a life expectancy a decade lower than Europe, an infant mortality rate higher than Cuba, and the largest amount of bankruptcies over medical debt... You can absolutely be refused care until you die in the USA. Sure at the very end if you stumble to a hospital they'll put on a good show as they find out you're uninsured and you didn't take an ambulance because it was on average thousands of dollars, and you didn't go to a doctor because you knew you couldn't afford it... People die here all the time from lack of care. Our systems suck and are way broken.
    - UtopiaPunk 3y ago
      Just as an aside, Cuba's healthcare system kind of rules, especially given their place in the world. It's so good they practically have a surplus they use in trade. Like, they'll send doctors or medicines to other third world countries the US hates or ignores in exchange for oil or whatever. People tout how amazing it was USA could make covid vaccines so quickly, but Cuba did that too (while under trade embargos from the USA). It's impressive.
  - jjav 3y ago
    > Who is "having to do without" because they can't pay? A very large segment of the poor and even middle class in the US who work jobs that don't provide insurance. > In the US you can't be refused life-saving healthcare. You're probably thinking of emergency room care for immediately life-threatening accidents. For those yes, the emergency room is required to stabilize you in the short term. You'll be billed for it of course, causing bankrupcy if you had any money. But if you have advanced diabetes or cancer or any other life-ending conditions that aren't going to kill you right now, you will not get any treatment in the US if you can't pay for it so you can be left to die. Some states are better than others with options for the poor, but many are atrocious.
Woeps 3y ago
Have we gone to the same Europe? Because across 3 different European countries I have seen the complete opposite.
- blitz_skull 3y ago
  Did you have to schedule a visit 2 weeks out just to get some medicine for a minor sinus infection? (Medicine you could've gotten in the US for a $15-dollar copay and a 30 minute wait in a urgent care clinic) Because I did. Belgium's healthcare was no bueno for a foreign exchange student just looking to kick a cold.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Woeps 3y ago
    I have been living in Brussels for last 10 years and have had no such issues. Au contraire, I go to the doctor and get medication so easily prescribed that I'm afraid the doctor is to nonchalant ... (and always without an appointment, maybe sometimes 20 min wait) Edit: regarding Sinus infections, quick google search shows that the "apotheek" carries and sells medicine for this.. so maybe you just had bad luck/was misunderstood?
  - Tade0 3y ago
    Let's just say that Belgium, collectively as a nation, needs a hug. I hail from a country with the lowest number of practicing physicians per 1000 inhabitants in the EU and I still can get an appointment with a general practitioner on the same day. Specialists are of course a different matter but again - lowest number of doctors in the EU. They're all in Norway now.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - UtopiaPunk 3y ago
    Lmao. I'm in the US, and I'm waiting to see a doctor because the earliest someone could see me was 2 months is away (and that was checking across several nearby towns, not being picky about one particular doctor's schedule). I thought that was pretty good, because scheduling our last an annual check up was much further out.
easywood 3y ago
Unfortunately the level of knowledge on the subject is quite apparent when somebody speaks about "the" European healthcare. I'm sure the doctors spoke European too.
- blitz_skull 3y ago
  Unfortunately, European is not a language. But the mindset of socialist healthcare is distinctly European. That’s what this discussion is about, all pedantry aside. The “European” model varies from country to country, sure. But the overall mindset behind it does not.

marginalia_nu 3y ago

Income tax isn't going to solve this, and I think it's unfortunate Europe tends to very myopically focus on income differences. Progressive income tax does little other than to widen the gap between wage slaves and the rich. The wealthiest don't have an absurdly high income, they own enough assets to live off dividends and wealth appreciation, which typically gets taxed 20-30%. If they even have an income to be taxed, it's basically symbolic. This is where the real inequality exists, and it's unfortunately not part of the discussion at all. Instead wagies with slightly higher than average income get portrayed as 18th century mustache twisting top-hat capitalist factory owners.

jdmoreira 3y ago
agree with everything you said. I absolutely despise the income tax. You literally have no path to wealth in Europe by being an employee, in fact if you are a top performer as an employee you are most likely carrying a huge load of the rest of society on your back. Meanwhile wealth gets taxed much lower (when it gets taxed at all)
- soco 3y ago
  I cannot picture having a path to wealth as an employee. I mean I'm struggling to even conceptualize this. Do you have actual expectations to get on this path? Or maybe we define differently "wealth"... You can definitely have a fine life as an employee (although that gets eroded too, inequality growing everywhere and former middle class gets pushed down), but to be wealthy that was always another category altogether.
  - markc 3y ago
    There is a viable path from (upper?)-middle class to early retirement that is built mostly out of hardcore discipline, willingness to delay gratification, and some luck. The idea is to live well below your means, be "frugal", and pound every spare dollar into tax advantaged retirement accounts (first) then your own aggressive growth equities. Get a bonus? The whole thing goes to your brokerage, have a stock plan at work? Max it. Since this mild form of FIRE may take 30+ years, you should invest aggressively in equities (risk decreases with longer time horizon) and possibly buy some rental properties along the way. IMO this gives the best probability (though no guarantee) of retiring financially independent before age 60.