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> you must relearn correct technique from the beginning (actively get worse at bowling) Yeah that's what's happening with me in tennis. As a kid I never really

> you must relearn correct technique from the beginning (actively get worse at bowling) Yeah that's what's happening with me in tennis. As a kid I never really took any formal coaching, just learnt from my brother and started rallying with people. Recently, I decided to start playing again, so I went to a coach and I am learning the correct technique from the beginning. Have to constantly correct and rewire my automatic reactions. It feels really good to learn something you're bad at, and then seeing your brain slowly automating the new stuff over time.

yowzadave 3y ago
Yes, this pattern is extremely obvious in tennis--you'll often encounter rec-level players who manage to win a lot of matches against players of lower ability by hitting nothing but slow floaters/moonballs/chip shots. Because they use those shots exclusively (because they're often effective at lower levels!), they plateau, and never develop the full range of tennis skills they need to compete against more well-rounded players.
jdechko 3y ago
See also swimming. A lot of people, myself included, know how to “swim” freestyle. But the difference in technique between trained and untrained is stark if you know what to look for. It takes a lot of effort to unlearn the improper technique and learn what to do. At the same time, it’s difficult doing longer distances because of muscle memory.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  Hmm really? I feel like freestyle is just “lengthen your stroke (or go yolo windmills for sprints) and kick”
  - jdechko 3y ago
    Yep. “Lengthening the stroke” is the end result. But body rotation, head position, engaging your core/abs, how your arms enter and pull through the water all make it so much more fluid. Even the angle of your elbow and hands. I’m certainly no expert, but I see so many people that swim with their head completely out of the water. It drops the hips and legs, increases drag and expends so much more effort. The result is yolo thrashing through the water. Compare to Olympic swimmers who seem to effortlessly glide through the water.
    - jncfhnb 3y ago
      Eh. If your head is out of the water you’re doing more of a doggy paddle than a front crawl, caveats to water polo players. I would say that is an entirely different way to swim. “Freestyle” is whatever you want, although people generally will choose front crawl for almost every situation* Edit: to clarify, if you’re not rotating your shoulders and are doing a doggy paddle, you’re going to be moving so inefficiently that you’ll probably drown over a short distance if you cannot rest. That’s barely “swimming”. And is a far cry from amateur bowling and tennis imo.
      - jdechko 3y ago
        That’s kinda my point though. At my gym, about half of the people I see in the pool are so inefficient that they barely can swim 25 yards without getting exhausted. But to them, they’re “swimming”. I know you mentioned amateurs, but I’m really considering the average person who can “do the thing” (swim, golf, bowl, play tennis) vs someone who has even spent a little time trying to figure out the proper technique. Hell, Tiger Woods dominated the tour and then spent time trying to work on his swing (before his life spiraled out of control). Also, re-reading the original comments I was replying to, I wanted to clarify that I fell into the “flail around and try to get across the pool” category. I improved my technique considerably even though it’s not proper. I’m at the point where if I really want to improve, I need to unlearn my “good enough” skills and re-learn it properly. Unfortunately, it’s hard to do 1000+ yds nonstop the “right” way right now, so my warm ups are a lot of 50s and 100s where I go slow and focus. Then I can do maybe 50% of a longer interval “properly”
      - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
        It's really easy to put a lot of effort into going nowhere with your head up out of the water. In water polo we used to take advantage of that on occasion to make it look like an opponent behind us was holding us by the suit. Stop reaching forward enough, let your hips sink, and just paddle like mad.
        jncfhnb 3y ago
        Is that’s thing? Do water polo players not wear skin tight suits?
LanceH 3y ago
I see this play out every year with the kids in wrestling. A strong kid comes in and hits a particular move to beat all the other new wrestlers. It's the most obvious move in the world and is easily countered by anyone with experience. Some never get past it and never get better. It's maddening when it's the kid on your team, because they are often the best athlete as well, and they're now losing to much weaker kids who have paid attention in practice for a year.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  My BJJ coach says "Success is a terrible teacher"
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    Sadly, this applies to business as well.

yowzadave 3y ago

Yes, this pattern is extremely obvious in tennis--you'll often encounter rec-level players who manage to win a lot of matches against players of lower ability by hitting nothing but slow floaters/moonballs/chip shots. Because they use those shots exclusively (because they're often effective at lower levels!), they plateau, and never develop the full range of tennis skills they need to compete against more well-rounded players.

jdechko 3y ago

See also swimming. A lot of people, myself included, know how to “swim” freestyle. But the difference in technique between trained and untrained is stark if you know what to look for. It takes a lot of effort to unlearn the improper technique and learn what to do. At the same time, it’s difficult doing longer distances because of muscle memory.

jncfhnb 3y ago
Hmm really? I feel like freestyle is just “lengthen your stroke (or go yolo windmills for sprints) and kick”
- jdechko 3y ago
  Yep. “Lengthening the stroke” is the end result. But body rotation, head position, engaging your core/abs, how your arms enter and pull through the water all make it so much more fluid. Even the angle of your elbow and hands. I’m certainly no expert, but I see so many people that swim with their head completely out of the water. It drops the hips and legs, increases drag and expends so much more effort. The result is yolo thrashing through the water. Compare to Olympic swimmers who seem to effortlessly glide through the water.
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    Eh. If your head is out of the water you’re doing more of a doggy paddle than a front crawl, caveats to water polo players. I would say that is an entirely different way to swim. “Freestyle” is whatever you want, although people generally will choose front crawl for almost every situation* Edit: to clarify, if you’re not rotating your shoulders and are doing a doggy paddle, you’re going to be moving so inefficiently that you’ll probably drown over a short distance if you cannot rest. That’s barely “swimming”. And is a far cry from amateur bowling and tennis imo.
    - jdechko 3y ago
      That’s kinda my point though. At my gym, about half of the people I see in the pool are so inefficient that they barely can swim 25 yards without getting exhausted. But to them, they’re “swimming”. I know you mentioned amateurs, but I’m really considering the average person who can “do the thing” (swim, golf, bowl, play tennis) vs someone who has even spent a little time trying to figure out the proper technique. Hell, Tiger Woods dominated the tour and then spent time trying to work on his swing (before his life spiraled out of control). Also, re-reading the original comments I was replying to, I wanted to clarify that I fell into the “flail around and try to get across the pool” category. I improved my technique considerably even though it’s not proper. I’m at the point where if I really want to improve, I need to unlearn my “good enough” skills and re-learn it properly. Unfortunately, it’s hard to do 1000+ yds nonstop the “right” way right now, so my warm ups are a lot of 50s and 100s where I go slow and focus. Then I can do maybe 50% of a longer interval “properly”
    - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
      It's really easy to put a lot of effort into going nowhere with your head up out of the water. In water polo we used to take advantage of that on occasion to make it look like an opponent behind us was holding us by the suit. Stop reaching forward enough, let your hips sink, and just paddle like mad.
      - jncfhnb 3y ago
        Is that’s thing? Do water polo players not wear skin tight suits?

LanceH 3y ago

I see this play out every year with the kids in wrestling. A strong kid comes in and hits a particular move to beat all the other new wrestlers. It's the most obvious move in the world and is easily countered by anyone with experience. Some never get past it and never get better. It's maddening when it's the kid on your team, because they are often the best athlete as well, and they're now losing to much weaker kids who have paid attention in practice for a year.

aidenn0 3y ago
My BJJ coach says "Success is a terrible teacher"
- _ea1k 3y ago
  Sadly, this applies to business as well.