6 ms·

> Then we must go for Russia first, this is no recent analogue to Russias coordinated execution, rape and torture of civilians, in not just Ukraine but in Chech

by k1m 3y ago

> Then we must go for Russia first, this is no recent analogue to Russias coordinated execution, rape and torture of civilians, in not just Ukraine but in Chechnya too. Are you seriously suggesting Russia is responsible for more death and destruction around the world than the US?

brnt 3y ago
> Are you seriously suggesting Russia is responsible for more death and destruction around the world than the US? A 'benefit' of genocides is that few if anyone is left tot tell the tale. Wikipedia has a decent record on the methods of Russian imperial expansion. Sure, many European colonial powers did similar things, but America's empire was won not quite as violently as those. Anyone that has studied how Russia copied Mongolian methods wholesale knows that they were particularly violent.
_kbh_ 3y ago
> Are you seriously suggesting Russia is responsible for more death and destruction around the world than the US? I am suggesting that Russias wars are far more brutal than America's. There is no systematic rape and torture involved in America's wars. It's pretty much a stable of Russias recent wars. to quote the UN report. "Investigating cases related to sexual and gender-based violence present specific challenges. The Commission has found that some Russian Federation soldiers committed such crimes. These acts amounted to different types of violations of rights, including sexual violence, torture, and cruel and inhuman treatment. There are examples of cases where relatives were forced to witness the crimes. In the cases we have investigated, the age of victims of sexual and gendered-based violence ranged from four to 82 years.".
- berdario 3y ago
  > There is no systematic rape and torture involved in America's wars Please.. https://capl.army.mil/case-studies/wcs-single.php?id=78&title=black-hearts-yusufiyah-iraq https://capl.army.mil/case-studies/wcs-single.php?id=78&titl... Read about the My Lai massacre about torture in Abu Ghraib About the bombing of Kunduz Hospital https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/22/iraq-checkpoint-killings-american-troops https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/22/iraq-checkpoin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes Of course, your reaction might be: "these are only one-off cases, it's not systematic!" It's always unreported. Or reported several years after the fact (when there's nothing that can be done about it). Or it's always "excusable", "accidental"... But when the other side does it, it's always proof of their barbaric attitudes. There's a comic about this: https://twitter.com/tomgauld/status/571994690289061888 https://twitter.com/tomgauld/status/571994690289061888
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > https://capl.army.mil/case-studies/wcs-single.php?id=78&titl https://capl.army.mil/case-studies/wcs-single.php?id=78&titl... A single case is hardly systematic. > My Lai massacre >> 16 March 1968 Whilst Russia is still stuck in the 1960's the rest of the world has come a long way since then and generally agrees that the atrocities committed then where quite bad. But honestly, if you have to go back 55 years to find a comparable event I dare say the Russians are brutal. > Of course, your reaction might be: "these are only one-off cases, it's not systematic!" It is. > It's always unreported. Or reported several years after the fact (when there's nothing that can be done about it). Or it's always "excusable", "accidental"... I agree!. Just think about how many more civilians have been raped and tortured in Ukraine that haven't been reported, we have seen so much reported smoke the fire must be bigger than any other fire recent memory. > But when the other side does it, it's always proof of their barbaric attitudes. I think its terrible what the US did. Do you think its terrible that Russia rapes and tortures civilians in Ukraine?.
    - berdario 3y ago
      > Do you think its terrible that Russia rapes and tortures civilians in Ukraine?. I think it's terrible, just as much as it's terrible that the US rapes and torture civilians in the middle east. But that's inflammatory language, which I don't like to use. I prefer to say that some US soldiers rape and torture civilians, and some Russian soldiers rape and torture civilians. That's not to excuse the soldiers. And even if they join the military as destitute teenagers (be they US or Russians), they should put effort in atoning for their contribution to large scale suffering. Basically, we shouldn't treat all soldiers the same: they aren't all war criminals, and they aren't all veterans worthy of respect. It's a career choice. Of course, most of the responsibility lies with people like Colin Powell, George Bush, Sergei Shoigu, Vladimir Putin, etc... That's the thing that is left unsaid often: If the conflict is big enough, there are always war crimes (on either side). That was inevitable once the invasion started, and this should've factored in the decision: it was evidently considered an acceptable cost. That's the monstruous thing, and yet it's pretty banal: monstruous bureacrauts or accountants decided that the benefits outweighed the cost in human lives (and some of these lives would be innocent civilians, victims of rape or torture). But considering that is useful only if you're inside the country that is engaged in the military effort. If you're outside, focusing on that doesn't help to de-escalate while the war is still raging. The material conditions guide everyone's decisions, and war is no different.
chrysler 3y ago
>> Are you seriously suggesting Russia is responsible for more death and destruction around the world than the US? Yes, without any question. WWII alone is responsible for tens of millions of deaths. USSR enabled Germany by dividing Europe with them in Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which was followed by joint invasion of Poland weeks later, war against Finland, occupation of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, massacres like Katyn on the newly occupied territories, and eventually the war between themselves. USSR supplied hundreds of thousands of tons of all kinds of raw materials (oil, iron, grains, etc) between 1940 and 1941 to support German war effort in the West. 2/3 of all imported goods to Germany in 1940 and 1941 came from the USSR. Oil train after oil train went to Germany while Luftwaffe was bombing London. Not to mention what went on 1941-1945... There's a book by Russian war reporter who recorded atrocities committed in Prussia. One scene had small groups of Russian soldiers and officers across a field as far as the eye can see, all with their pants down, waiting for their turn to rape German women who they had found in a refugee convoy. Houses in "liberated" towns were full of naked women dead in blood-soaked beds, sexual organs destroyed from non-stop raping. In total, several million women were raped in state-sanctioned violence against German civilians in the closing months of WWII. They raped even "liberated" concentration camp prisoners. But if that's too old for you and you want more modern examples, read a few books on the Soviet-Afghan war in 1980s or the Chechen wars in 1990s, preferrably translations of works by independent Russian authors like Anna Politkovskaya and Svetlana Alexievich. You will find similar unmatched brutality. Believing that the actions of US government come even close are... naive.
- boffinAudio 3y ago
  You are comparing the USSR with modern America. This is a classic American agitprop technique - necessary, because you are entirely unaware of the magnitude of the crimes against humanity and war crimes being committed in your name every single day. The USA drops bombs on innocent people, on average, at a rate of one bomb dropped on an innocent person, every twenty minutes, for the last twenty years. There are 34 million refugees from Americas' wars, started in 2003. Iraq lost 5% of its population to American war agression, and still loses children every single day as a consequence of America's invasion. You'd really better inform yourself. The USA is the #1 promoter of terrorism and calamity in the world today. https://airwars.org/ https://airwars.org/ Russia has a long way to go to catch up with the US' war crimes and crimes against humanity, committed this century - not to mention the massive violations of human rights that is occurring as part of the heinously criminal 5-eyes regime. A long, long way to go. >Believing that the actions of US government come even close are... naive. I think you have to be very, very ignorant - bordering on cowardly - if this is your position today. Don't you know what your country did to Mosul? To Raqqa? To Libya?

by k1m 3y ago

brnt 3y ago

> Are you seriously suggesting Russia is responsible for more death and destruction around the world than the US? A 'benefit' of genocides is that few if anyone is left tot tell the tale. Wikipedia has a decent record on the methods of Russian imperial expansion. Sure, many European colonial powers did similar things, but America's empire was won not quite as violently as those. Anyone that has studied how Russia copied Mongolian methods wholesale knows that they were particularly violent.

_kbh_ 3y ago

> Are you seriously suggesting Russia is responsible for more death and destruction around the world than the US? I am suggesting that Russias wars are far more brutal than America's. There is no systematic rape and torture involved in America's wars. It's pretty much a stable of Russias recent wars. to quote the UN report. "Investigating cases related to sexual and gender-based violence present specific challenges. The Commission has found that some Russian Federation soldiers committed such crimes. These acts amounted to different types of violations of rights, including sexual violence, torture, and cruel and inhuman treatment. There are examples of cases where relatives were forced to witness the crimes. In the cases we have investigated, the age of victims of sexual and gendered-based violence ranged from four to 82 years.".

berdario 3y ago
> There is no systematic rape and torture involved in America's wars Please.. https://capl.army.mil/case-studies/wcs-single.php?id=78&title=black-hearts-yusufiyah-iraq https://capl.army.mil/case-studies/wcs-single.php?id=78&titl... Read about the My Lai massacre about torture in Abu Ghraib About the bombing of Kunduz Hospital https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/22/iraq-checkpoint-killings-american-troops https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/22/iraq-checkpoin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes Of course, your reaction might be: "these are only one-off cases, it's not systematic!" It's always unreported. Or reported several years after the fact (when there's nothing that can be done about it). Or it's always "excusable", "accidental"... But when the other side does it, it's always proof of their barbaric attitudes. There's a comic about this: https://twitter.com/tomgauld/status/571994690289061888 https://twitter.com/tomgauld/status/571994690289061888
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > https://capl.army.mil/case-studies/wcs-single.php?id=78&titl https://capl.army.mil/case-studies/wcs-single.php?id=78&titl... A single case is hardly systematic. > My Lai massacre >> 16 March 1968 Whilst Russia is still stuck in the 1960's the rest of the world has come a long way since then and generally agrees that the atrocities committed then where quite bad. But honestly, if you have to go back 55 years to find a comparable event I dare say the Russians are brutal. > Of course, your reaction might be: "these are only one-off cases, it's not systematic!" It is. > It's always unreported. Or reported several years after the fact (when there's nothing that can be done about it). Or it's always "excusable", "accidental"... I agree!. Just think about how many more civilians have been raped and tortured in Ukraine that haven't been reported, we have seen so much reported smoke the fire must be bigger than any other fire recent memory. > But when the other side does it, it's always proof of their barbaric attitudes. I think its terrible what the US did. Do you think its terrible that Russia rapes and tortures civilians in Ukraine?.
  - berdario 3y ago
    > Do you think its terrible that Russia rapes and tortures civilians in Ukraine?. I think it's terrible, just as much as it's terrible that the US rapes and torture civilians in the middle east. But that's inflammatory language, which I don't like to use. I prefer to say that some US soldiers rape and torture civilians, and some Russian soldiers rape and torture civilians. That's not to excuse the soldiers. And even if they join the military as destitute teenagers (be they US or Russians), they should put effort in atoning for their contribution to large scale suffering. Basically, we shouldn't treat all soldiers the same: they aren't all war criminals, and they aren't all veterans worthy of respect. It's a career choice. Of course, most of the responsibility lies with people like Colin Powell, George Bush, Sergei Shoigu, Vladimir Putin, etc... That's the thing that is left unsaid often: If the conflict is big enough, there are always war crimes (on either side). That was inevitable once the invasion started, and this should've factored in the decision: it was evidently considered an acceptable cost. That's the monstruous thing, and yet it's pretty banal: monstruous bureacrauts or accountants decided that the benefits outweighed the cost in human lives (and some of these lives would be innocent civilians, victims of rape or torture). But considering that is useful only if you're inside the country that is engaged in the military effort. If you're outside, focusing on that doesn't help to de-escalate while the war is still raging. The material conditions guide everyone's decisions, and war is no different.

chrysler 3y ago

>> Are you seriously suggesting Russia is responsible for more death and destruction around the world than the US? Yes, without any question. WWII alone is responsible for tens of millions of deaths. USSR enabled Germany by dividing Europe with them in Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which was followed by joint invasion of Poland weeks later, war against Finland, occupation of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, massacres like Katyn on the newly occupied territories, and eventually the war between themselves. USSR supplied hundreds of thousands of tons of all kinds of raw materials (oil, iron, grains, etc) between 1940 and 1941 to support German war effort in the West. 2/3 of all imported goods to Germany in 1940 and 1941 came from the USSR. Oil train after oil train went to Germany while Luftwaffe was bombing London. Not to mention what went on 1941-1945... There's a book by Russian war reporter who recorded atrocities committed in Prussia. One scene had small groups of Russian soldiers and officers across a field as far as the eye can see, all with their pants down, waiting for their turn to rape German women who they had found in a refugee convoy. Houses in "liberated" towns were full of naked women dead in blood-soaked beds, sexual organs destroyed from non-stop raping. In total, several million women were raped in state-sanctioned violence against German civilians in the closing months of WWII. They raped even "liberated" concentration camp prisoners. But if that's too old for you and you want more modern examples, read a few books on the Soviet-Afghan war in 1980s or the Chechen wars in 1990s, preferrably translations of works by independent Russian authors like Anna Politkovskaya and Svetlana Alexievich. You will find similar unmatched brutality. Believing that the actions of US government come even close are... naive.

boffinAudio 3y ago
You are comparing the USSR with modern America. This is a classic American agitprop technique - necessary, because you are entirely unaware of the magnitude of the crimes against humanity and war crimes being committed in your name every single day. The USA drops bombs on innocent people, on average, at a rate of one bomb dropped on an innocent person, every twenty minutes, for the last twenty years. There are 34 million refugees from Americas' wars, started in 2003. Iraq lost 5% of its population to American war agression, and still loses children every single day as a consequence of America's invasion. You'd really better inform yourself. The USA is the #1 promoter of terrorism and calamity in the world today. https://airwars.org/ https://airwars.org/ Russia has a long way to go to catch up with the US' war crimes and crimes against humanity, committed this century - not to mention the massive violations of human rights that is occurring as part of the heinously criminal 5-eyes regime. A long, long way to go. >Believing that the actions of US government come even close are... naive. I think you have to be very, very ignorant - bordering on cowardly - if this is your position today. Don't you know what your country did to Mosul? To Raqqa? To Libya?