4 ms·

You notice that between 1940 and 2020: Church membership declined from 75% → 50% Premarital sex rate went from from 20% → 75% Trust in government went from 7

by BMc2020 3y ago

You notice that between 1940 and 2020: Church membership declined from 75% → 50% Premarital sex rate went from from 20% → 75% Trust in government went from 75% → 20% Prime-age-male-labor-force nonparticipation rate quadrupled from 3% → 12% Marijuana use went from 4% → 49%

sneak 3y ago
USA: intentional homicide 6.3/100k in 1940 to 5.0/100k in 2018 (-22%)
hn_version_0023 3y ago
[flagged]
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  I think you have proven what I take to be Steve Alexander's point, that the reason people consider moral decline to be an illusion is because they have abandoned the moral standards of the past. Whether you think it is good or bad that we have abandoned the moral standards of the past doesn't really affect his point.
  - logicprog 3y ago
    The thing is, we all already know that we have abandoned some of the moral standards of the past, and that those in the past would view us as immoral/sinful/degenerate/whatever. That's not actually a very interesting question or point at all. The interesting version of the moral decline question is whether there has been a decline in things we actually care about, which is why people react by trying to answer that question.
    - rufus_foreman 3y ago
      "The interesting version of the moral decline question is whether there has been a decline in things we actually care about" Who is "we"? I do care about church membership, the premarital sex rate, trust in government, the prime age male labor force nonparticipation rate and marijuana use. So, I'm not sure who "we" is here, but it isn't me.
      - Tostino 3y ago
        All things that others are doing that has between zero and very little impact on you. No one is forcing you into any of it. Why not attempt to keep your moral outrage to yourself and just live your life?
      - logicprog 3y ago
        Well, each person is probably going to care about different things, so the interesting moral decline question is going to be regarding different metrics for different people.
logicprog 3y ago
Let me guess, you also think queer people existing, contraceptives, and women having bodily autonomy are signs of moral decline too. Also, 1940 was your high water mark for morality? Seriously?
pipo234 3y ago
> So an alternative explanation for widespread perception of moral decline is that each generation observes moral decline relative to its own standards. and > [..] they find a marginal trend for people to rate morality worse 40 years before their birth than 20, which doesn’t fit a rose-colored glasses effect but does fit an imprint-on-your-own-birth-year one. In other words: convincing, but just lies, damn lies, and statistics :-)
JohnFen 3y ago
OK, but what is the argument that those numbers represent a moral decline?
- joemazerino 3y ago
  That the numbers prove moral decline?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - hairofadog 3y ago
    Some of those are religious issues, but none are moral issues.
    - zogrodea 3y ago
      It really depends on where your morality comes from because historical perceptions of morality, in different places, have varied wildly. Some of those cultures reasonably take morality from religion. Your phrase that "none are moral issues" really just means "none of those conflict with whatever morality I hold". Here is a quote I like from Descartes. "But I believed that I had already given sufficient time to languages, and likewise to the reading of the writings of the ancients, to their histories and fables. For to hold converse with those of other ages and to travel, are almost the same thing. It is useful to know something of the manners of different nations, that we may be enabled to form a more correct judgment regarding our own, and be prevented from thinking that everything contrary to our customs is ridiculous and irrational, a conclusion usually come to by those whose experience has been limited to their own country."
      - hairofadog 3y ago
        I take your point, but by that standard the person who posted the stats may as well have said Wearing pants increased from X% → Y% Eating pork increased from X% → Y% Drawing pictures increased from X% → Y% Reading Harry Potter increased from X% → Y% Using the stove on Saturday increased from X% → Y% See? These stats prove morality is in decline! I'd argue that the conclusion to be drawn is that morality is so subjective that the very idea of a moral decline is nonsense, not that these numbers prove a moral decline. (I actually do think a moral decline is happening, but in my view it's more along the lines of increases in tribalism, factory farming, militarization of police, the industrial prison complex, wealth inequality, etc.)

sneak 3y ago

USA: intentional homicide 6.3/100k in 1940 to 5.0/100k in 2018 (-22%)

hn_version_0023 3y ago

[flagged]

rufus_foreman 3y ago
I think you have proven what I take to be Steve Alexander's point, that the reason people consider moral decline to be an illusion is because they have abandoned the moral standards of the past. Whether you think it is good or bad that we have abandoned the moral standards of the past doesn't really affect his point.
- logicprog 3y ago
  The thing is, we all already know that we have abandoned some of the moral standards of the past, and that those in the past would view us as immoral/sinful/degenerate/whatever. That's not actually a very interesting question or point at all. The interesting version of the moral decline question is whether there has been a decline in things we actually care about, which is why people react by trying to answer that question.
  - rufus_foreman 3y ago
    "The interesting version of the moral decline question is whether there has been a decline in things we actually care about" Who is "we"? I do care about church membership, the premarital sex rate, trust in government, the prime age male labor force nonparticipation rate and marijuana use. So, I'm not sure who "we" is here, but it isn't me.
    - Tostino 3y ago
      All things that others are doing that has between zero and very little impact on you. No one is forcing you into any of it. Why not attempt to keep your moral outrage to yourself and just live your life?
    - logicprog 3y ago
      Well, each person is probably going to care about different things, so the interesting moral decline question is going to be regarding different metrics for different people.

logicprog 3y ago

Let me guess, you also think queer people existing, contraceptives, and women having bodily autonomy are signs of moral decline too. Also, 1940 was your high water mark for morality? Seriously?

pipo234 3y ago

> So an alternative explanation for widespread perception of moral decline is that each generation observes moral decline relative to its own standards. and > [..] they find a marginal trend for people to rate morality worse 40 years before their birth than 20, which doesn’t fit a rose-colored glasses effect but does fit an imprint-on-your-own-birth-year one. In other words: convincing, but just lies, damn lies, and statistics :-)

JohnFen 3y ago

OK, but what is the argument that those numbers represent a moral decline?

joemazerino 3y ago
That the numbers prove moral decline?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hairofadog 3y ago
  Some of those are religious issues, but none are moral issues.
  - zogrodea 3y ago
    It really depends on where your morality comes from because historical perceptions of morality, in different places, have varied wildly. Some of those cultures reasonably take morality from religion. Your phrase that "none are moral issues" really just means "none of those conflict with whatever morality I hold". Here is a quote I like from Descartes. "But I believed that I had already given sufficient time to languages, and likewise to the reading of the writings of the ancients, to their histories and fables. For to hold converse with those of other ages and to travel, are almost the same thing. It is useful to know something of the manners of different nations, that we may be enabled to form a more correct judgment regarding our own, and be prevented from thinking that everything contrary to our customs is ridiculous and irrational, a conclusion usually come to by those whose experience has been limited to their own country."
    - hairofadog 3y ago
      I take your point, but by that standard the person who posted the stats may as well have said Wearing pants increased from X% → Y% Eating pork increased from X% → Y% Drawing pictures increased from X% → Y% Reading Harry Potter increased from X% → Y% Using the stove on Saturday increased from X% → Y% See? These stats prove morality is in decline! I'd argue that the conclusion to be drawn is that morality is so subjective that the very idea of a moral decline is nonsense, not that these numbers prove a moral decline. (I actually do think a moral decline is happening, but in my view it's more along the lines of increases in tribalism, factory farming, militarization of police, the industrial prison complex, wealth inequality, etc.)