3 ms·

The tools thing seems to be the right approach. A lot of huge gaming genres came to be from modding, level editors etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o

by dgb23 3y ago

The tools thing seems to be the right approach. A lot of huge gaming genres came to be from modding, level editors etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_derived_from_mods https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_derived_... ARTS (Dota, LoL) to battle royale (PUBG, Fortnite, Apex), Tactical shooters (CS), team/hero shooters (TF, OW) and more… All of these genres came from making modding accessible and are some of the most successful genres to date. The new trend however is to close games down, DRM, “life service”, fewer possibilities and very strict IP implications on derivative work (we own everything you create etc.) Free software might be an appropriate answer to this.

tsimionescu 3y ago
> The new trend however is to close games down, DRM, “life service”, fewer possibilities and very strict IP implications on derivative work (we own everything you create etc.) I don't know of any popular game that didn't have DRM and didn't have very strict IP implications on fan content (say, after the early 90s maybe?). It's not like the teams behind the original DOTA or CS or TF ever made money selling those, and would have likely been blocked even if they tried. It's true though that live service games are quite antithetical to modding because of their need to control player progression and sell it. Still, I would say the divide between games which supported modding and games that didn't has always existed, with much fewer games in the first category, and there are still huge games coming out today that do. It's even become possible to create mods for console games, so it's not all doom and gloom.
- zirgs 3y ago
  Every single game that's available on GOG has no DRM. Including very popular ones like Cyberpunk 2077 and the Witcher series.
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    Sure, but GoG is a relatively new player and an exception in the market. Not to mention the vast majority of those games have had DRM removed by GoG, they originally shipped with it - including Cyberpunk 2077 and the Witcher games where this was done to prevent pre-release leaks. Games much, much older than GoG used to have various ways of doing DRM, though to be fair some were laughably easy to bypass (codes printed in the manual and such).
- uzerfcwn 3y ago
  >I don't know of any popular game that didn't have DRM and didn't have very strict IP implications on fan content (say, after the early 90s maybe?). It's not like the teams behind the original DOTA or CS or TF ever made money selling those, and would have likely been blocked even if they tried. Warcraft 3 (2002, 2003) was infamously lax on IP, leading to e.g. several big DotA clones that employed the modders (Dota2 for Icefrog, LoL for Guinsoo) and legal disputes on who owned which properties [1][2]. Blizzard revised their EULA in 2020 to prevent similar cases. [3] [1] https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91202572&pty=OPP&eno=1 https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91202572&pty=OPP&eno... [2] https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/05/does-valve-really-own-dota-a-jury-will-decide/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/05/does-valve-really-own... [3] https://dotesports.com/general/news/warcraft-iii-reforgeds-user-license-agreement-makes-it-impossible-for-creators-to-take-credit-for-what-they-make-or-use-copyrighted-material https://dotesports.com/general/news/warcraft-iii-reforgeds-u...
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    League of Legends never stepped on Warcraft trademarks as far as I know, even though they were a clone of DOTA. Valve and others battled it out legally with Blizzard over the DOTA name and eventually won, but this was definitely not Blizzard's intention - and of course they didn't use any Blizzard-created art in the final game. Note that I don't think anything in the W3: reforged terms of service would prevent a new game being created based on a W3 mod, it would just prevent it from using the same name and art as the mod. This is exactly what happened to all other successful mods, with Dota2 being pretty much the sole exception. Also, Riot mostly proved that you don't actually need the artwork or names to be massively successful - you just need to recognize a good idea and be the first to market with a polished implementation of it.
    - uzerfcwn 3y ago
      > Valve and others battled it out legally with Blizzard over the DOTA name and eventually won, but this was definitely not Blizzard's intention - and of course they didn't use any Blizzard-created art in the final game. Had Blizzard owned DotA IP, I believe Valve would've had to steer much further away from the map, character and item design. IP extends beyond just art and naming, see e.g. Tetris vs Mino [1]. The case wouldn't have been a guaranteed win for Blizzard, but the early releases of Dota 2 were really closely copied from late releases of DotA, so the argument is there. > Note that I don't think anything in the W3: reforged terms of service would prevent a new game being created based on a W3 mod, it would just prevent it from using the same name and art as the mod. This is exactly what happened to all other successful mods, with Dota2 being pretty much the sole exception. Keyword being successful. Many maps have standalone ports that kept their predecessor's name [2][3][4][5], but only Dota 2 is really successful. And again, I believe these wouldn't exist or would've made large changes if Blizzard owned the IP of Warcraft 3 mods. [1] https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/06/defining-tetris-how-courts-judge-gaming-clones/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/06/defining-tetris-how-c... [2] https://store.steampowered.com/app/578350/Element_TD/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/578350/Element_TD/ [3] https://store.steampowered.com/app/537680/Sheep_Tag_2/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/537680/Sheep_Tag_2/ [4] https://store.steampowered.com/app/469600/Legion_TD_2__Multiplayer_Tower_Defense/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/469600/Legion_TD_2__Multi... [5] https://store.steampowered.com/app/676580/NEO_Impossible_Bosses/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/676580/NEO_Impossible_Bos...
nottorp 3y ago
Note that they're all multiplayer competitive games. That's the easiest kind of game to make and where the creativity part matters least, with the exception of fine tuning the game mechanics.
- dgb23 3y ago
  The devil is in the details with these games. They need to balance a complex system of interactions, features, economies. They have to adhere to "easy to learn, hard to master", to remain accessible and reward active players at the same time. They are also genres with a ton of competition and only the most engaging and well designed come out on top. I would say those things are all hard.
- barbariangrunge 3y ago
  I’d you think they’re easy to make, I invite you to make one. Multiplayer is hard, and you have to do a really good job in your execution to make any money
  - nottorp 3y ago
    You're only thinking of the technical part.

by dgb23 3y ago

tsimionescu 3y ago

> The new trend however is to close games down, DRM, “life service”, fewer possibilities and very strict IP implications on derivative work (we own everything you create etc.) I don't know of any popular game that didn't have DRM and didn't have very strict IP implications on fan content (say, after the early 90s maybe?). It's not like the teams behind the original DOTA or CS or TF ever made money selling those, and would have likely been blocked even if they tried. It's true though that live service games are quite antithetical to modding because of their need to control player progression and sell it. Still, I would say the divide between games which supported modding and games that didn't has always existed, with much fewer games in the first category, and there are still huge games coming out today that do. It's even become possible to create mods for console games, so it's not all doom and gloom.

zirgs 3y ago
Every single game that's available on GOG has no DRM. Including very popular ones like Cyberpunk 2077 and the Witcher series.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  Sure, but GoG is a relatively new player and an exception in the market. Not to mention the vast majority of those games have had DRM removed by GoG, they originally shipped with it - including Cyberpunk 2077 and the Witcher games where this was done to prevent pre-release leaks. Games much, much older than GoG used to have various ways of doing DRM, though to be fair some were laughably easy to bypass (codes printed in the manual and such).
uzerfcwn 3y ago
>I don't know of any popular game that didn't have DRM and didn't have very strict IP implications on fan content (say, after the early 90s maybe?). It's not like the teams behind the original DOTA or CS or TF ever made money selling those, and would have likely been blocked even if they tried. Warcraft 3 (2002, 2003) was infamously lax on IP, leading to e.g. several big DotA clones that employed the modders (Dota2 for Icefrog, LoL for Guinsoo) and legal disputes on who owned which properties [1][2]. Blizzard revised their EULA in 2020 to prevent similar cases. [3] [1] https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91202572&pty=OPP&eno=1 https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91202572&pty=OPP&eno... [2] https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/05/does-valve-really-own-dota-a-jury-will-decide/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/05/does-valve-really-own... [3] https://dotesports.com/general/news/warcraft-iii-reforgeds-user-license-agreement-makes-it-impossible-for-creators-to-take-credit-for-what-they-make-or-use-copyrighted-material https://dotesports.com/general/news/warcraft-iii-reforgeds-u...
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  League of Legends never stepped on Warcraft trademarks as far as I know, even though they were a clone of DOTA. Valve and others battled it out legally with Blizzard over the DOTA name and eventually won, but this was definitely not Blizzard's intention - and of course they didn't use any Blizzard-created art in the final game. Note that I don't think anything in the W3: reforged terms of service would prevent a new game being created based on a W3 mod, it would just prevent it from using the same name and art as the mod. This is exactly what happened to all other successful mods, with Dota2 being pretty much the sole exception. Also, Riot mostly proved that you don't actually need the artwork or names to be massively successful - you just need to recognize a good idea and be the first to market with a polished implementation of it.
  - uzerfcwn 3y ago
    > Valve and others battled it out legally with Blizzard over the DOTA name and eventually won, but this was definitely not Blizzard's intention - and of course they didn't use any Blizzard-created art in the final game. Had Blizzard owned DotA IP, I believe Valve would've had to steer much further away from the map, character and item design. IP extends beyond just art and naming, see e.g. Tetris vs Mino [1]. The case wouldn't have been a guaranteed win for Blizzard, but the early releases of Dota 2 were really closely copied from late releases of DotA, so the argument is there. > Note that I don't think anything in the W3: reforged terms of service would prevent a new game being created based on a W3 mod, it would just prevent it from using the same name and art as the mod. This is exactly what happened to all other successful mods, with Dota2 being pretty much the sole exception. Keyword being successful. Many maps have standalone ports that kept their predecessor's name [2][3][4][5], but only Dota 2 is really successful. And again, I believe these wouldn't exist or would've made large changes if Blizzard owned the IP of Warcraft 3 mods. [1] https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/06/defining-tetris-how-courts-judge-gaming-clones/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/06/defining-tetris-how-c... [2] https://store.steampowered.com/app/578350/Element_TD/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/578350/Element_TD/ [3] https://store.steampowered.com/app/537680/Sheep_Tag_2/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/537680/Sheep_Tag_2/ [4] https://store.steampowered.com/app/469600/Legion_TD_2__Multiplayer_Tower_Defense/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/469600/Legion_TD_2__Multi... [5] https://store.steampowered.com/app/676580/NEO_Impossible_Bosses/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/676580/NEO_Impossible_Bos...

nottorp 3y ago

Note that they're all multiplayer competitive games. That's the easiest kind of game to make and where the creativity part matters least, with the exception of fine tuning the game mechanics.

dgb23 3y ago
The devil is in the details with these games. They need to balance a complex system of interactions, features, economies. They have to adhere to "easy to learn, hard to master", to remain accessible and reward active players at the same time. They are also genres with a ton of competition and only the most engaging and well designed come out on top. I would say those things are all hard.
barbariangrunge 3y ago
I’d you think they’re easy to make, I invite you to make one. Multiplayer is hard, and you have to do a really good job in your execution to make any money
- nottorp 3y ago
  You're only thinking of the technical part.