4 ms·

> right past wrongs, make those wronged people whole, and only then ignore identity Ok, so what’s the dollar amount? At what point can we say the past wrongs h

> right past wrongs, make those wronged people whole, and only then ignore identity Ok, so what’s the dollar amount? At what point can we say the past wrongs have been righted, and that everyone should stop talking about identity now?

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
that's an interesting question, but not one I feel we need to decide now. I'd be happy to hear your suggestions, but obviously "0" wouldn't be a workable one e.g. it should be at least 1 dollar, so we can start with 1 dollar without needing to decide the upper limit indeed, it seems like a question intended to stop the action entirely, rather than one intended to discover the right magnitude of action as for when everyone can stop talking about racial identity: the racism ongoing today itself is an example of this, so when racists stop doing so first, anti-racists can, second
- yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
  The question is designed to guide us towards a realistic course of action. If you can't define a target upon which reaching it would allow us to consider the problem solved, then suggesting that anyone will move beyond identitarianism after the problem has been solved is totally disingenuous. To suggest that there is no need to define an upper limit to reparations implies that you don't believe the problem ever can be solved, and that these kinds of multi-generational grievances should persist perpetually. I don't agree that "0" is unworkable. I'm obviously not thrilled that my not at all distant relatives were slaughtered by Nazis, but holding my breath for reparations is only going to do me a disservice and isn't going to bring those people back or undo that suffering. The suggestion to "start with 1 dollar" is frankly bizarre. Is that all my dead relatives are worth? A dollar?
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    > The question is designed to guide us towards a realistic course of action. If you can't define a target upon which reaching it would allow us to consider the problem solved, then suggesting that anyone will move beyond identitarianism after the problem has been solved is totally disingenuous. the goal isn't to "move beyond identity" yet, it is to right past wrongs. Once we've done that, we can move onto another goal like the one you suggest there. how will we know when we're at the finish line? It isn't actually necessary to figure that out upfront (that's what agile planning is about, for example). All that's necessary is to ask "are we there now?", and we aren't, so more effort is required before reassessing when slavery was instituted, the people who supported it didn't ask "when will it be too much slavery?", so we don't now need to ask "when will we make up too much for it?" > I don't agree that "0" is unworkable I do, so maybe you can suggest another number, and we can compromise, try it out, and reassess afterwards: after all, it's not like giving 1 dollar would be worse than slavery!
    - yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
      > maybe you can suggest another number, and we can compromise, try it out, and reassess afterwards: after all, it's not like giving 1 dollar would be worse than slavery! I’m sorry, but this line of reasoning is so utterly insane that I can no longer continue to engage.
      - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        > I’m sorry, but this line of reasoning is so utterly insane that I can no longer continue to engage is it? I'm not so sure. this response sounds like when advocates of the former president similarly thought themselves above engaging with what they similarly believed was the "insanity" of the american people, and said former guy lost as a result.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago

that's an interesting question, but not one I feel we need to decide now. I'd be happy to hear your suggestions, but obviously "0" wouldn't be a workable one e.g. it should be at least 1 dollar, so we can start with 1 dollar without needing to decide the upper limit indeed, it seems like a question intended to stop the action entirely, rather than one intended to discover the right magnitude of action as for when everyone can stop talking about racial identity: the racism ongoing today itself is an example of this, so when racists stop doing so first, anti-racists can, second

yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
The question is designed to guide us towards a realistic course of action. If you can't define a target upon which reaching it would allow us to consider the problem solved, then suggesting that anyone will move beyond identitarianism after the problem has been solved is totally disingenuous. To suggest that there is no need to define an upper limit to reparations implies that you don't believe the problem ever can be solved, and that these kinds of multi-generational grievances should persist perpetually. I don't agree that "0" is unworkable. I'm obviously not thrilled that my not at all distant relatives were slaughtered by Nazis, but holding my breath for reparations is only going to do me a disservice and isn't going to bring those people back or undo that suffering. The suggestion to "start with 1 dollar" is frankly bizarre. Is that all my dead relatives are worth? A dollar?
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  > The question is designed to guide us towards a realistic course of action. If you can't define a target upon which reaching it would allow us to consider the problem solved, then suggesting that anyone will move beyond identitarianism after the problem has been solved is totally disingenuous. the goal isn't to "move beyond identity" yet, it is to right past wrongs. Once we've done that, we can move onto another goal like the one you suggest there. how will we know when we're at the finish line? It isn't actually necessary to figure that out upfront (that's what agile planning is about, for example). All that's necessary is to ask "are we there now?", and we aren't, so more effort is required before reassessing when slavery was instituted, the people who supported it didn't ask "when will it be too much slavery?", so we don't now need to ask "when will we make up too much for it?" > I don't agree that "0" is unworkable I do, so maybe you can suggest another number, and we can compromise, try it out, and reassess afterwards: after all, it's not like giving 1 dollar would be worse than slavery!
  - yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
    > maybe you can suggest another number, and we can compromise, try it out, and reassess afterwards: after all, it's not like giving 1 dollar would be worse than slavery! I’m sorry, but this line of reasoning is so utterly insane that I can no longer continue to engage.
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      > I’m sorry, but this line of reasoning is so utterly insane that I can no longer continue to engage is it? I'm not so sure. this response sounds like when advocates of the former president similarly thought themselves above engaging with what they similarly believed was the "insanity" of the american people, and said former guy lost as a result.