4 ms·

Foxes guarding henhouses. Lawyers disciplining lawyers. Cops disciplining cops. Do any of these sound like good ideas? If so, do they work in practice?

tourmalinetaco 3y ago
I would like to think they do on some level, but there is definitely some level of softness applied to the blows they take. For instance, us “normal” people, when charged with a crime, are pulled through the ringer and taken through sometimes multi-month trials to prove ourselves. When a cop gets a bit trigger-happy and kills an innocent man in cold-blood and almost kills his wife, after knowingly knocking on the wrong house, they’re put on paid leave.[0] I truly do want to believe it works in practice, but I have my limits. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/video-shows-n-mexico-police-were-wrong-house-seconds-before-killing-homeowner-2023-04-15/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/video-shows-n-mexico-...
- deepspace 3y ago
  > “normal” people, when charged with a crime, are pulled through the ringer and taken through sometimes multi-month trials Not to mention that a defence in a criminal trial will likely bankrupt all but the top 1%. Which is why innocent people almost always take a plea deal. People are quick to say "I will sue", or "I will defend my innocence to the end", until presented with the potential bill. Justice is truly the providence of the rich, and the rich only.
  - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
    While I agree on your last point, it should be noted that at least in the US for criminal matters you must have a court appointed lawyer if you prove to be unable to pay for one out-of-pocket. For civil cases however, you’re out of luck. Additionally, plea deals are also taken because they’re a “known”. You can quantify the result, and you can’t in a court case. Not to mention most people really don’t want to deal with the stress and find probation + fine + misdemeanor a worthwhile cost.
  - sterlind 3y ago
    it's less about money and more about time. you take the plea deal and go away for 2 years tops, or you try your luck with a trial and risk 10 if convicted.
petesergeant 3y ago
I’m happy with teachers disciplining teachers and doctors disciplining doctors, for what it’s worth?
- autoexec 3y ago
  We absolutely need their input, but it also takes the input of patients and nurses, as well as parents and students to make sure that the people who are supposed to be being served by doctors and teachers are getting what they need. When doctors and teachers refuse to hold themselves accountable, there needs to be other voices in the room.
autoexec 3y ago
It's the same situation with medical licensing boards allowing doctors to tell their patients that their illness is caused by alien DNA and demon sperm. The near total lack of accountability and oversight erodes the public's trust in critical institutions that our society depends on to stay functional. It destabilizes our nation. Corruption spreads when it isn't kept in check. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it will be to correct, and however long that takes, it'll take much longer before trust is restored.
tiedieconderoga 3y ago
It feels like a common paradox. Why should lawyers discipline lawyers? Why should cops discipline cops? Why should lobbyists advise legislators? Why should banks help to shape financial regulations? Why should corporate aircraft engineers participate in the aircraft certification process? Because they are subject matter experts. Who else is better placed and better suited to do it, and who else would charge less for the service?
- autoexec 3y ago
  I don't think it's wise to cut every possible corner and consider only what saves the most money. What we want is something that works for the people being served. Subject matter experts are great for input, but just because foxes are experts in chickens, being so intimately familiar with their ins and outs, that doesn't mean that they should run the hen house. We need other stakeholders involved too. The people who depend on those systems need to be represented. The people those institutions serve. The people who will be impacted by them.
- maximus-decimus 3y ago
  >It feels like a common paradox. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" a.k.a. "Who watches the watchmen?" is a 2000 years old quote so it's not a new problem either.
- Hermitian909 3y ago
  Subject matter experts may be good at defining what the standards should be - that does not mean they need to be wholly and independently in charge of enforcement of those standards.

tourmalinetaco 3y ago

I would like to think they do on some level, but there is definitely some level of softness applied to the blows they take. For instance, us “normal” people, when charged with a crime, are pulled through the ringer and taken through sometimes multi-month trials to prove ourselves. When a cop gets a bit trigger-happy and kills an innocent man in cold-blood and almost kills his wife, after knowingly knocking on the wrong house, they’re put on paid leave.[0] I truly do want to believe it works in practice, but I have my limits. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/video-shows-n-mexico-police-were-wrong-house-seconds-before-killing-homeowner-2023-04-15/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/video-shows-n-mexico-...

deepspace 3y ago
> “normal” people, when charged with a crime, are pulled through the ringer and taken through sometimes multi-month trials Not to mention that a defence in a criminal trial will likely bankrupt all but the top 1%. Which is why innocent people almost always take a plea deal. People are quick to say "I will sue", or "I will defend my innocence to the end", until presented with the potential bill. Justice is truly the providence of the rich, and the rich only.
- tourmalinetaco 3y ago
  While I agree on your last point, it should be noted that at least in the US for criminal matters you must have a court appointed lawyer if you prove to be unable to pay for one out-of-pocket. For civil cases however, you’re out of luck. Additionally, plea deals are also taken because they’re a “known”. You can quantify the result, and you can’t in a court case. Not to mention most people really don’t want to deal with the stress and find probation + fine + misdemeanor a worthwhile cost.
- sterlind 3y ago
  it's less about money and more about time. you take the plea deal and go away for 2 years tops, or you try your luck with a trial and risk 10 if convicted.

petesergeant 3y ago

I’m happy with teachers disciplining teachers and doctors disciplining doctors, for what it’s worth?

autoexec 3y ago
We absolutely need their input, but it also takes the input of patients and nurses, as well as parents and students to make sure that the people who are supposed to be being served by doctors and teachers are getting what they need. When doctors and teachers refuse to hold themselves accountable, there needs to be other voices in the room.

autoexec 3y ago

It's the same situation with medical licensing boards allowing doctors to tell their patients that their illness is caused by alien DNA and demon sperm. The near total lack of accountability and oversight erodes the public's trust in critical institutions that our society depends on to stay functional. It destabilizes our nation. Corruption spreads when it isn't kept in check. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it will be to correct, and however long that takes, it'll take much longer before trust is restored.

tiedieconderoga 3y ago

It feels like a common paradox. Why should lawyers discipline lawyers? Why should cops discipline cops? Why should lobbyists advise legislators? Why should banks help to shape financial regulations? Why should corporate aircraft engineers participate in the aircraft certification process? Because they are subject matter experts. Who else is better placed and better suited to do it, and who else would charge less for the service?

autoexec 3y ago
I don't think it's wise to cut every possible corner and consider only what saves the most money. What we want is something that works for the people being served. Subject matter experts are great for input, but just because foxes are experts in chickens, being so intimately familiar with their ins and outs, that doesn't mean that they should run the hen house. We need other stakeholders involved too. The people who depend on those systems need to be represented. The people those institutions serve. The people who will be impacted by them.
maximus-decimus 3y ago
>It feels like a common paradox. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" a.k.a. "Who watches the watchmen?" is a 2000 years old quote so it's not a new problem either.
Hermitian909 3y ago
Subject matter experts may be good at defining what the standards should be - that does not mean they need to be wholly and independently in charge of enforcement of those standards.