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Being born black is a disadvantage to your life outcome in the current system. That's the main point. The comparison to how we treat the physically handicapped

Being born black is a disadvantage to your life outcome in the current system. That's the main point. The comparison to how we treat the physically handicapped is just asking folks to consider why we are okay with helping people at cost to ourselves in one case and not another.

dcow 3y ago
> Being born black is a disadvantage to your life outcome. You're sick and your mind is diseased. I'd like to see you try to tell this to a black child. We’re okay helping handicapped people because it’s not racist. Duh. I’m okay helping disparaged kids get into college by subsidizing them with financial aid programs and creating compassionate admission standards. Why limit it to black people? The supreme court seems to agree that it’s time to move forward and focus on the real issues, not the racial scapegoat.
- kajecounterhack 3y ago
  > You're sick and your mind is diseased. I'd like to see you try to tell this to a black child. First of all, I'm not going around talking to random children. Secondly, black parents _totally_ have to say at some point to their kid, "hey you have to be careful around cops because they won't treat you the same as they treat your white friends." I don't understand where you got this "you're sick and your mind is diseased" bit. The point was just that the playing field's not level and you're willfully missing it. > Why limit it to black people? Because the scale of systemic injustice to black folks is so big that it should not be controversial. The legacy of slavery in this country looms large. To be clear I also fully support measures to reduce overall economic inequality as well, it's just not the topic being discussed here.
  - dcow 3y ago
    I’m not missing anything. I understand exactly what you’re parroting. I’m telling you that you’re perpetuating a racist worldview of victimhood in an effort to signal your guilt and remorse to random peers (likely not even black people). I fundamentally believe your worldview and savior complex do more harm to the very people you think need saving than good. I consider you to be reducing complex nuanced reality to skin color, which is racist. There is nothing you can say to me right now that will change the fact that I don’t feel one ounce of guilt over the history of slavery in the US. There is no possible moral framework where I am responsible for things that happened hundreds of years ago. All I can do is treat people equally moving forward and help people in need. There’s a reason people say dwelling on the past is unhealthy.
    - erenyeager 3y ago
      Give it for a white person to talk about guilt and race, as if everything had to be centered around how white people feel. That exactly itself is racism. It’s pretty simple, injustice was perpetuated by the dominant group against other groups. It still exists today as well as its effects. The dominant group got to dictate the prestige culture, the policies, the norms, enforce its ways. If you want to support good goals and justice, you must be in support of policies to combat this injustice. And it begins with acknowledging that by being part of a dominant group there are benefits, and being part of a marginalized group there are disadvantages. If you refuse to acknowledge these things, it’s similar to choosing to ignore injustices happening currently.
      - dcow 3y ago
        How did we get from “I disagree with race-based legal policy” to “I don't acknowledge privileges”? Thats’s exactly the type of rhetorically bankrupt leap SJWs make all the time. It’s silly and simply not true. Quit it with the thought-terminating cliches, please…
    - kajecounterhack 3y ago
      > I'm telling you that you’re perpetuating a racist worldview of victimhood in an effort to signal your guilt and remorse to random peers I'm anon and not even white (my parents are immigrants) -- who am I signaling to or guilty about? The only effort being made is an effort to reason with other anons on the interwebs, so take it or leave it. You can also keep calling me racist for pointing out systemic racial inequity but last I checked racism is a byproduct of ignorance, and I'm sensing a whole lot of that from you. So, right back at you. > I fundamentally believe your worldview and savior complex do more harm to the very people you think need saving than good I get that this is a difference between us. I fundamentally believe that your worldview is faulty because it turns a blind eye to how tilted the status quo is and doesn't consider the status quo to be unethical. Characterizing a desire to level the playing field as a "savior complex" is unfair -- it's not a savior complex to feel that something is wrong and want to fix it, it's just called being conscientious. > I don’t feel one ounce of guilt over the history of slavery in the US. Dude nobody cares if you feel guilt or not, you're missing the point. Guilt doesn't help anyone, systemic policy changes do. Why are you making it sound like anyone cares about what you feel as an individual? > All I can do is treat people equally moving forward and help people in need. You can also acknowledge the legacy of past inequities, how they persist in the systems we live in today, and work to remedy them. If you step into a colored person's shoes and think about what bullshit they STILL have to face today (which you don't have to, as a white person), you might begin to see the desire for reform less as "identity politics" and more just "advocating for equal ass treatment."
- f154hfds 3y ago
  These ad hominems don't help your point, they just alienate - probably time to take a break from affirmative action commenting for a moment :) I think we're equivocating with kajecounterhack on what 'disadvantage' means, and they chose an unfortunate analogy to illustrate their idea of disadvantage that is perhaps more fundamental to the disadvantaged person than they were going for. The point is that 'disadvantage' does not take away opportunity, and disadvantage in the US no longer comes purely on racial terms, at least not when it comes to opportunity for education and financial success. You can get a degree by studying hard for the SAT and better your circumstances for a well placed $20 in high school, or you can join a trade school and say screw it to higher education and still better your circumstances. These opportunities exist for pretty much every black kid as long as they don't break the law and avoid addiction. They are in no way 'disabled' and have agency over their own destiny.
  - kajecounterhack 3y ago
    > I think we're equivocating with kajecounterhack on what 'disadvantage' means, and they chose an unfortunate analogy to illustrate their idea of disadvantage that is perhaps more fundamental to the disadvantaged person than they were going for. Yeah I do regret drawing this analogy even if I still think it's apt, since it's distracting from my point instead of reinforcing it. > These opportunities exist for pretty much every black kid as long as they don't break the law and avoid addiction. They are in no way 'disabled' and have agency over their own destiny. I wasn't saying black folks are disabled. I was trying to express that some folks have disadvantages in life that start from birth, and color qualifies as one of those because of the way society at large has and continues to discriminate against folks with darker skin. This particular discrimination deserves addressing through efforts like affirmative action because its impact on life outcomes is profound. You could say that the ability to buy an SAT book is all it takes to get a degree, but this doesn't track with reality. Preparation for college education starts from youth, and in the US public school quality is related to where you live. The legacy of slavery and Jim Crow extend to where we live today. An emphasis on education as a means to better yourself is also commonly handed down by your family -- but what if your family traces back (it's not that far) to an era where black folks were discriminated against when it came to education? There are other interesting ways to slice it (e.g. how many of your parents went to college is a predictor of whether you'll go to college and also whether you succeed if you go; being poor at harvard means you actually don't get the same experience as folks who are better off). > They are in no way 'disabled' and have agency over their own destiny. I 100% agree with this statement, I just think that agency can only get you so far. You need supporting infrastructure, otherwise in the aggregate we will continue to perpetuate inequities (which unfortunately also reinforce discriminatory viewpoints).

dcow 3y ago

> Being born black is a disadvantage to your life outcome. You're sick and your mind is diseased. I'd like to see you try to tell this to a black child. We’re okay helping handicapped people because it’s not racist. Duh. I’m okay helping disparaged kids get into college by subsidizing them with financial aid programs and creating compassionate admission standards. Why limit it to black people? The supreme court seems to agree that it’s time to move forward and focus on the real issues, not the racial scapegoat.

kajecounterhack 3y ago
> You're sick and your mind is diseased. I'd like to see you try to tell this to a black child. First of all, I'm not going around talking to random children. Secondly, black parents _totally_ have to say at some point to their kid, "hey you have to be careful around cops because they won't treat you the same as they treat your white friends." I don't understand where you got this "you're sick and your mind is diseased" bit. The point was just that the playing field's not level and you're willfully missing it. > Why limit it to black people? Because the scale of systemic injustice to black folks is so big that it should not be controversial. The legacy of slavery in this country looms large. To be clear I also fully support measures to reduce overall economic inequality as well, it's just not the topic being discussed here.
- dcow 3y ago
  I’m not missing anything. I understand exactly what you’re parroting. I’m telling you that you’re perpetuating a racist worldview of victimhood in an effort to signal your guilt and remorse to random peers (likely not even black people). I fundamentally believe your worldview and savior complex do more harm to the very people you think need saving than good. I consider you to be reducing complex nuanced reality to skin color, which is racist. There is nothing you can say to me right now that will change the fact that I don’t feel one ounce of guilt over the history of slavery in the US. There is no possible moral framework where I am responsible for things that happened hundreds of years ago. All I can do is treat people equally moving forward and help people in need. There’s a reason people say dwelling on the past is unhealthy.
  - erenyeager 3y ago
    Give it for a white person to talk about guilt and race, as if everything had to be centered around how white people feel. That exactly itself is racism. It’s pretty simple, injustice was perpetuated by the dominant group against other groups. It still exists today as well as its effects. The dominant group got to dictate the prestige culture, the policies, the norms, enforce its ways. If you want to support good goals and justice, you must be in support of policies to combat this injustice. And it begins with acknowledging that by being part of a dominant group there are benefits, and being part of a marginalized group there are disadvantages. If you refuse to acknowledge these things, it’s similar to choosing to ignore injustices happening currently.
    - dcow 3y ago
      How did we get from “I disagree with race-based legal policy” to “I don't acknowledge privileges”? Thats’s exactly the type of rhetorically bankrupt leap SJWs make all the time. It’s silly and simply not true. Quit it with the thought-terminating cliches, please…
  - kajecounterhack 3y ago
    > I'm telling you that you’re perpetuating a racist worldview of victimhood in an effort to signal your guilt and remorse to random peers I'm anon and not even white (my parents are immigrants) -- who am I signaling to or guilty about? The only effort being made is an effort to reason with other anons on the interwebs, so take it or leave it. You can also keep calling me racist for pointing out systemic racial inequity but last I checked racism is a byproduct of ignorance, and I'm sensing a whole lot of that from you. So, right back at you. > I fundamentally believe your worldview and savior complex do more harm to the very people you think need saving than good I get that this is a difference between us. I fundamentally believe that your worldview is faulty because it turns a blind eye to how tilted the status quo is and doesn't consider the status quo to be unethical. Characterizing a desire to level the playing field as a "savior complex" is unfair -- it's not a savior complex to feel that something is wrong and want to fix it, it's just called being conscientious. > I don’t feel one ounce of guilt over the history of slavery in the US. Dude nobody cares if you feel guilt or not, you're missing the point. Guilt doesn't help anyone, systemic policy changes do. Why are you making it sound like anyone cares about what you feel as an individual? > All I can do is treat people equally moving forward and help people in need. You can also acknowledge the legacy of past inequities, how they persist in the systems we live in today, and work to remedy them. If you step into a colored person's shoes and think about what bullshit they STILL have to face today (which you don't have to, as a white person), you might begin to see the desire for reform less as "identity politics" and more just "advocating for equal ass treatment."
f154hfds 3y ago
These ad hominems don't help your point, they just alienate - probably time to take a break from affirmative action commenting for a moment :) I think we're equivocating with kajecounterhack on what 'disadvantage' means, and they chose an unfortunate analogy to illustrate their idea of disadvantage that is perhaps more fundamental to the disadvantaged person than they were going for. The point is that 'disadvantage' does not take away opportunity, and disadvantage in the US no longer comes purely on racial terms, at least not when it comes to opportunity for education and financial success. You can get a degree by studying hard for the SAT and better your circumstances for a well placed $20 in high school, or you can join a trade school and say screw it to higher education and still better your circumstances. These opportunities exist for pretty much every black kid as long as they don't break the law and avoid addiction. They are in no way 'disabled' and have agency over their own destiny.
- kajecounterhack 3y ago
  > I think we're equivocating with kajecounterhack on what 'disadvantage' means, and they chose an unfortunate analogy to illustrate their idea of disadvantage that is perhaps more fundamental to the disadvantaged person than they were going for. Yeah I do regret drawing this analogy even if I still think it's apt, since it's distracting from my point instead of reinforcing it. > These opportunities exist for pretty much every black kid as long as they don't break the law and avoid addiction. They are in no way 'disabled' and have agency over their own destiny. I wasn't saying black folks are disabled. I was trying to express that some folks have disadvantages in life that start from birth, and color qualifies as one of those because of the way society at large has and continues to discriminate against folks with darker skin. This particular discrimination deserves addressing through efforts like affirmative action because its impact on life outcomes is profound. You could say that the ability to buy an SAT book is all it takes to get a degree, but this doesn't track with reality. Preparation for college education starts from youth, and in the US public school quality is related to where you live. The legacy of slavery and Jim Crow extend to where we live today. An emphasis on education as a means to better yourself is also commonly handed down by your family -- but what if your family traces back (it's not that far) to an era where black folks were discriminated against when it came to education? There are other interesting ways to slice it (e.g. how many of your parents went to college is a predictor of whether you'll go to college and also whether you succeed if you go; being poor at harvard means you actually don't get the same experience as folks who are better off). > They are in no way 'disabled' and have agency over their own destiny. I 100% agree with this statement, I just think that agency can only get you so far. You need supporting infrastructure, otherwise in the aggregate we will continue to perpetuate inequities (which unfortunately also reinforce discriminatory viewpoints).