5 ms·

> Your example of handicaps is disturbing Being born a certain race is a disadvantage in the same way being born with physical disability is a disadvantage. Th

> Your example of handicaps is disturbing Being born a certain race is a disadvantage in the same way being born with physical disability is a disadvantage. They're not the same but that was the point I was trying to make: we look out for disadvantaged folks in some societal contexts. Why are y'all complaining about systemically disadvantaged people getting some help? Is it because you can't trace the taxpayer dollars we spend on things like Section 8 housing back to your wallet, but you can trace back your rejection letter from Harvard to accursed affirmative action? > If you believe in equality of outcome then you will never be satisfied If you re-read what I wrote earlier, I said equality of opportunity is the north star. But just because you believe in that north star doesn't mean you can't see the value in skewing the current state by other means until you're there. There's another thing here: affirmative action isn't something that keeps going much past your college graduation, and it doesn't directly remedy the brokenness of the K-12 education system, where de-facto race segregation is commonplace and you can start 3 grades back just by being born in the wrong town. Even diversity programs at big companies are typically only aimed at new grads. These are limited programs that just try to boost folks who typically haven't had the necessary support to achieve their full potential. At the end of the day the free market will do its work. Folks claiming the little boost from affirmative action is "discrimination" need to get their heads out of the sand. > you seem to be saying they're incapable of handling a level playing field which would be.. racist No, I'm saying colored folks _are_ capable of achieving the same things as white folks if given the same advantages and privileges. But they don't get those advantages and privileges because society is broken. Affirmative action is one tool we can use to help put more colored folks in places of power in society. Without this, we will never sniff equal opportunity -- the north star we all seem to agree we want. Having people who look like you in places of power is important because they can advocate for you and surface areas where the opportunity is decidedly _not_ equal.

porkbeer 3y ago
Calling race a handicap is itself pretty clear racism. Maybe reconsider how you consider these things.
- kajecounterhack 3y ago
  Being born black is a disadvantage to your life outcome in the current system. That's the main point. The comparison to how we treat the physically handicapped is just asking folks to consider why we are okay with helping people at cost to ourselves in one case and not another.
  - dcow 3y ago
    > Being born black is a disadvantage to your life outcome. You're sick and your mind is diseased. I'd like to see you try to tell this to a black child. We’re okay helping handicapped people because it’s not racist. Duh. I’m okay helping disparaged kids get into college by subsidizing them with financial aid programs and creating compassionate admission standards. Why limit it to black people? The supreme court seems to agree that it’s time to move forward and focus on the real issues, not the racial scapegoat.
    - kajecounterhack 3y ago
      > You're sick and your mind is diseased. I'd like to see you try to tell this to a black child. First of all, I'm not going around talking to random children. Secondly, black parents _totally_ have to say at some point to their kid, "hey you have to be careful around cops because they won't treat you the same as they treat your white friends." I don't understand where you got this "you're sick and your mind is diseased" bit. The point was just that the playing field's not level and you're willfully missing it. > Why limit it to black people? Because the scale of systemic injustice to black folks is so big that it should not be controversial. The legacy of slavery in this country looms large. To be clear I also fully support measures to reduce overall economic inequality as well, it's just not the topic being discussed here.
      - dcow 3y ago
        I’m not missing anything. I understand exactly what you’re parroting. I’m telling you that you’re perpetuating a racist worldview of victimhood in an effort to signal your guilt and remorse to random peers (likely not even black people). I fundamentally believe your worldview and savior complex do more harm to the very people you think need saving than good. I consider you to be reducing complex nuanced reality to skin color, which is racist. There is nothing you can say to me right now that will change the fact that I don’t feel one ounce of guilt over the history of slavery in the US. There is no possible moral framework where I am responsible for things that happened hundreds of years ago. All I can do is treat people equally moving forward and help people in need. There’s a reason people say dwelling on the past is unhealthy.
dcow 3y ago
> Being born a certain race is a disadvantage in the same way being born with physical disability is a disadvantage. No it's not! That's the most goddamned racist thing I've ever heard. Holy shit. You should listen to Thomas Sowell, a "disadvantaged" black person, respond to your argument since you clearly won't listen to me: Discrimination and Disparity https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/36222735 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/36222735 To summarize Sowell: telling a bunch of young black children that they're handicapped is the exact opposite of lifting up and supporting those in need. Perpetuating victimhood is not the solution. This worldview is poisoning kids minds and fucking them beyond repair. It is so goddamned unhealthy it's destructive and only serves to reinforce the false narrative that minorities are victims.
- kajecounterhack 3y ago
  How do you propose to lift up and support those in need if you can't even agree that the playing field is uneven and that when you're born black you face systemic injustices? _That's_ racist. Oh and I'm not going to read a book by a guy who defended Trump as being "not racist." While we're out here recommending books, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Between_the_World_and_Me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Between_the_World_and_Me exemplifies my point: a father telling his son the hard reality of our broken system.
  - dcow 3y ago
    You are certainly free to ignore logic and play identity and association politics. I doubt it will actually get you very far in an intellectual understanding of the nuanced point Sowell argues, but that’s your prerogative.
    - kajecounterhack 3y ago
      Welp we're at an impasse because your "logic" doesn't track for me either. I don't think any solution starts with talking to disadvantaged children. Fixing the broken systems they live in should have some impact though. There's too much bullshit out there for me to read every jamoke's book without doing some filtering based on whether this person is likely to be credible or improve my understanding of a situation. It's not identity politics, it's self-preservation.

porkbeer 3y ago

Calling race a handicap is itself pretty clear racism. Maybe reconsider how you consider these things.

kajecounterhack 3y ago
Being born black is a disadvantage to your life outcome in the current system. That's the main point. The comparison to how we treat the physically handicapped is just asking folks to consider why we are okay with helping people at cost to ourselves in one case and not another.
- dcow 3y ago
  > Being born black is a disadvantage to your life outcome. You're sick and your mind is diseased. I'd like to see you try to tell this to a black child. We’re okay helping handicapped people because it’s not racist. Duh. I’m okay helping disparaged kids get into college by subsidizing them with financial aid programs and creating compassionate admission standards. Why limit it to black people? The supreme court seems to agree that it’s time to move forward and focus on the real issues, not the racial scapegoat.
  - kajecounterhack 3y ago
    > You're sick and your mind is diseased. I'd like to see you try to tell this to a black child. First of all, I'm not going around talking to random children. Secondly, black parents _totally_ have to say at some point to their kid, "hey you have to be careful around cops because they won't treat you the same as they treat your white friends." I don't understand where you got this "you're sick and your mind is diseased" bit. The point was just that the playing field's not level and you're willfully missing it. > Why limit it to black people? Because the scale of systemic injustice to black folks is so big that it should not be controversial. The legacy of slavery in this country looms large. To be clear I also fully support measures to reduce overall economic inequality as well, it's just not the topic being discussed here.
    - dcow 3y ago
      I’m not missing anything. I understand exactly what you’re parroting. I’m telling you that you’re perpetuating a racist worldview of victimhood in an effort to signal your guilt and remorse to random peers (likely not even black people). I fundamentally believe your worldview and savior complex do more harm to the very people you think need saving than good. I consider you to be reducing complex nuanced reality to skin color, which is racist. There is nothing you can say to me right now that will change the fact that I don’t feel one ounce of guilt over the history of slavery in the US. There is no possible moral framework where I am responsible for things that happened hundreds of years ago. All I can do is treat people equally moving forward and help people in need. There’s a reason people say dwelling on the past is unhealthy.

dcow 3y ago

> Being born a certain race is a disadvantage in the same way being born with physical disability is a disadvantage. No it's not! That's the most goddamned racist thing I've ever heard. Holy shit. You should listen to Thomas Sowell, a "disadvantaged" black person, respond to your argument since you clearly won't listen to me: Discrimination and Disparity https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/36222735 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/36222735 To summarize Sowell: telling a bunch of young black children that they're handicapped is the exact opposite of lifting up and supporting those in need. Perpetuating victimhood is not the solution. This worldview is poisoning kids minds and fucking them beyond repair. It is so goddamned unhealthy it's destructive and only serves to reinforce the false narrative that minorities are victims.

kajecounterhack 3y ago
How do you propose to lift up and support those in need if you can't even agree that the playing field is uneven and that when you're born black you face systemic injustices? _That's_ racist. Oh and I'm not going to read a book by a guy who defended Trump as being "not racist." While we're out here recommending books, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Between_the_World_and_Me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Between_the_World_and_Me exemplifies my point: a father telling his son the hard reality of our broken system.
- dcow 3y ago
  You are certainly free to ignore logic and play identity and association politics. I doubt it will actually get you very far in an intellectual understanding of the nuanced point Sowell argues, but that’s your prerogative.
  - kajecounterhack 3y ago
    Welp we're at an impasse because your "logic" doesn't track for me either. I don't think any solution starts with talking to disadvantaged children. Fixing the broken systems they live in should have some impact though. There's too much bullshit out there for me to read every jamoke's book without doing some filtering based on whether this person is likely to be credible or improve my understanding of a situation. It's not identity politics, it's self-preservation.