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> I have inherited nothing from my parents except financial help with my college education. My dad is utterly in debt from funding his 7 children's college educ

> I have inherited nothing from my parents except financial help with my college education. My dad is utterly in debt from funding his 7 children's college educations... Contradicting yourself much? The whole point of the previous comment was if your father was black he would be much less likely to get the loan in the first place, which would result in, at the very least, crippling college debt for yourself, which would in turn lead to renting until you're ready to pass the ghost.

dcow 3y ago
No, the point is I have no traceable lineage to a hoard of wealth amassed by slave owners 6 generations ago that is filling the family coffers as people seem to be implying is true of all white Americans. My family immigrated over here 3 generations ago from shit conditions in a war torn Europe. Furthermore you have no idea my family’s situation and whether my father would or would not have been actually more likely than a black man in a similar situation to “get a loan” (he didn't even get loans like you suggest). And generally your comment doesn’t even apply to my situation it’s cant be reduced in the way you’re trying to argue it can. Also student loans ensure that there isn’t discrimination in who can take out a loan for college. Arguably my dad paid a tax because he didn't have use take out loans and help pay that way.
- MisterBastahrd 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - dcow 3y ago
    > They came over to this country and immediately had more rights than any black person walking down the street. That's simply not true. Rights are not granted by laws, they're innate. > We know for a fact that this is the case. Can you please point me to the data on this so I can better educate myself? > Student loans also conveniently are non-dischargable except by death. Almost like being enslaved. The point is that complaining about access to loans and concluding that I'm privileged because my dad could have accessed loans easier than a person of color is neither here nor there, because there were (and still are) plenty of programs that give preferential access to financial aid to minorities when I went to college, including but not limited to loans. > What's your father's poor planning have to do with the plight of other people? About as much as the color of my skin has to do with my current situation in life.
    - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
      > That's simply not true. Rights are not granted by laws, they're innate. > Can you please point me to the data on this so I can better educate myself? Ah, I see. You won't even pretend to argue from a position of credibility. Tell me, what rights did women have to vote before the 1920s, or blacks before the mid 60s? The term "inalienable right" is fictitious. You don't have a right in a society unless you or your society can defend it. You SHOULD have the right. It does not mean that you do. > The point is that complaining about access to loans and concluding that I'm privileged because my dad could have accessed loans easier than a person of color is neither here nor there, because there were (and still are) plenty of programs that give preferential access to financial aid to minorities when I went to college, including but not limited to loans. Everybody has access to that aid based on need. Now, as a person who paid every dime of my own college tuition out of my own pocket (and worked 60 hours a week while friends living in the same neighborhood with slightly poorer parents received thousands in grants), I would argue that student aid should not be based on the wealth of the parents at all. You could hypothetically argue that the United Negro College Fund is a racially biased private organization, but then, there's a reason that the fund exists in the first place, and it's the same reason that HBCUs exist, BET exists, In Living Color existed, etc, etc. Racism has not gone away. Racial biases against people of color has not gone away. Why should attempts to mitigate them? > About as much as the color of my skin has to do with my current situation in life. This is not about you. This has never been about you. This is about the nation righting a wrong. You have benefitted from this, indirectly, without paying anything into it. The descendants of slaves are not so lucky.
      - dcow 3y ago
        > The term "inalienable right" is fictitious. You don't have a right in a society unless you or your society can defend it. You SHOULD have the right. It does not mean that you do. Then civil disobedience is a sham, too. You should listen to the people who wrote the book on fighting for rights in a unjust society. The moral philosophy surrounding the civil rights movement is very informative. White people did not "grant" black people rights. Black people demanded to be treated fairly in an unjust society. And white people said, yeah the law is wrong and unfair we fucked up. And change happened. > You could hypothetically argue that the United Negro College Fund is a racially biased private organization, but then, there's a reason that the fund exists in the first place, and it's the same reason that HBCUs exist, BET exists, In Living Color existed, etc, etc. I mean they are racially biased. So what? It's awesome that we have advocacy groups, scholarship funds, and communities centered around black culture (a HBCU is emergent BTW not sure what you're arguing about those). These are great things! We're generally talking about whether it's okay to legally discriminate based solely on race to correct for history. The SCOTUS doesn't think so anymore. I honestly think you're extrapolating my position into something way more pedantic and annoying than it actually is. > You have benefitted from this, indirectly, without paying anything into it. The descendants of slaves are not so lucky I pay taxes...? And I participated in all of this. I went through the college system with worse odds than minorities. Some white guy somewhere is a wage slave because of it. I mean you so easily write off the things we've done as a society to help the situation and act like white people don't get any credit for listening to the struggles, having compassion, and finding ways to participate. It really confuses me. How exactly should a good white boy behave? Always asking how next he can prostrate himself at the altar of racial equity? How he can demonstrate his commitment to justice by finding ways of struggling even further in atonement? Anyway, you are trying to invalidate my comments by reducing me to my skin color and claiming that my entire life is privileged. I mean seriously it's so passé at this point. College was 10 years ago now. The world has moved on from De'Angelo and Kendi. It used to make me angry when people did this but I've come to terms with being discriminated against based on my skin color. I'm beginning to believe that it's human nature and can't be cured. I'll still argue that it shouldn't happen and that we can transcend race and achieve a colorblind society, because two wrongs don't make a right, but I can't stop you from needing to signal your guilt by calling out white privilege as if it actually helps anybody... > The descendants of slaves are not so lucky. Not all black people are dependents of slaves. Not all white people are descendants of slave owners. ^ This was the topic at hand if we stop getting distracted by the details of exactly how I am and am not privileged. Bottom line: obsessing over who historically struggled more doesn't get you anywhere. It's a tribal distraction that, if we're not careful, might derail the entire liberal society we've worked so hard to build. I really hope we didn't burn an entire generation trying to relive the glory days of victimhood. What problems have we actually solved playing identity politics? Exactly zero.
orangepurple 3y ago
He didn't get a loan. His father paid out of pocket, massively harming his own finances to help his children.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Some would probably argue that having a father who was involved with his life is itself white privilege.
  - dcow 3y ago
    And they would be almost offensively wrong about that.

dcow 3y ago

No, the point is I have no traceable lineage to a hoard of wealth amassed by slave owners 6 generations ago that is filling the family coffers as people seem to be implying is true of all white Americans. My family immigrated over here 3 generations ago from shit conditions in a war torn Europe. Furthermore you have no idea my family’s situation and whether my father would or would not have been actually more likely than a black man in a similar situation to “get a loan” (he didn't even get loans like you suggest). And generally your comment doesn’t even apply to my situation it’s cant be reduced in the way you’re trying to argue it can. Also student loans ensure that there isn’t discrimination in who can take out a loan for college. Arguably my dad paid a tax because he didn't have use take out loans and help pay that way.

MisterBastahrd 3y ago
[flagged]
- dcow 3y ago
  > They came over to this country and immediately had more rights than any black person walking down the street. That's simply not true. Rights are not granted by laws, they're innate. > We know for a fact that this is the case. Can you please point me to the data on this so I can better educate myself? > Student loans also conveniently are non-dischargable except by death. Almost like being enslaved. The point is that complaining about access to loans and concluding that I'm privileged because my dad could have accessed loans easier than a person of color is neither here nor there, because there were (and still are) plenty of programs that give preferential access to financial aid to minorities when I went to college, including but not limited to loans. > What's your father's poor planning have to do with the plight of other people? About as much as the color of my skin has to do with my current situation in life.
  - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
    > That's simply not true. Rights are not granted by laws, they're innate. > Can you please point me to the data on this so I can better educate myself? Ah, I see. You won't even pretend to argue from a position of credibility. Tell me, what rights did women have to vote before the 1920s, or blacks before the mid 60s? The term "inalienable right" is fictitious. You don't have a right in a society unless you or your society can defend it. You SHOULD have the right. It does not mean that you do. > The point is that complaining about access to loans and concluding that I'm privileged because my dad could have accessed loans easier than a person of color is neither here nor there, because there were (and still are) plenty of programs that give preferential access to financial aid to minorities when I went to college, including but not limited to loans. Everybody has access to that aid based on need. Now, as a person who paid every dime of my own college tuition out of my own pocket (and worked 60 hours a week while friends living in the same neighborhood with slightly poorer parents received thousands in grants), I would argue that student aid should not be based on the wealth of the parents at all. You could hypothetically argue that the United Negro College Fund is a racially biased private organization, but then, there's a reason that the fund exists in the first place, and it's the same reason that HBCUs exist, BET exists, In Living Color existed, etc, etc. Racism has not gone away. Racial biases against people of color has not gone away. Why should attempts to mitigate them? > About as much as the color of my skin has to do with my current situation in life. This is not about you. This has never been about you. This is about the nation righting a wrong. You have benefitted from this, indirectly, without paying anything into it. The descendants of slaves are not so lucky.
    - dcow 3y ago
      > The term "inalienable right" is fictitious. You don't have a right in a society unless you or your society can defend it. You SHOULD have the right. It does not mean that you do. Then civil disobedience is a sham, too. You should listen to the people who wrote the book on fighting for rights in a unjust society. The moral philosophy surrounding the civil rights movement is very informative. White people did not "grant" black people rights. Black people demanded to be treated fairly in an unjust society. And white people said, yeah the law is wrong and unfair we fucked up. And change happened. > You could hypothetically argue that the United Negro College Fund is a racially biased private organization, but then, there's a reason that the fund exists in the first place, and it's the same reason that HBCUs exist, BET exists, In Living Color existed, etc, etc. I mean they are racially biased. So what? It's awesome that we have advocacy groups, scholarship funds, and communities centered around black culture (a HBCU is emergent BTW not sure what you're arguing about those). These are great things! We're generally talking about whether it's okay to legally discriminate based solely on race to correct for history. The SCOTUS doesn't think so anymore. I honestly think you're extrapolating my position into something way more pedantic and annoying than it actually is. > You have benefitted from this, indirectly, without paying anything into it. The descendants of slaves are not so lucky I pay taxes...? And I participated in all of this. I went through the college system with worse odds than minorities. Some white guy somewhere is a wage slave because of it. I mean you so easily write off the things we've done as a society to help the situation and act like white people don't get any credit for listening to the struggles, having compassion, and finding ways to participate. It really confuses me. How exactly should a good white boy behave? Always asking how next he can prostrate himself at the altar of racial equity? How he can demonstrate his commitment to justice by finding ways of struggling even further in atonement? Anyway, you are trying to invalidate my comments by reducing me to my skin color and claiming that my entire life is privileged. I mean seriously it's so passé at this point. College was 10 years ago now. The world has moved on from De'Angelo and Kendi. It used to make me angry when people did this but I've come to terms with being discriminated against based on my skin color. I'm beginning to believe that it's human nature and can't be cured. I'll still argue that it shouldn't happen and that we can transcend race and achieve a colorblind society, because two wrongs don't make a right, but I can't stop you from needing to signal your guilt by calling out white privilege as if it actually helps anybody... > The descendants of slaves are not so lucky. Not all black people are dependents of slaves. Not all white people are descendants of slave owners. ^ This was the topic at hand if we stop getting distracted by the details of exactly how I am and am not privileged. Bottom line: obsessing over who historically struggled more doesn't get you anywhere. It's a tribal distraction that, if we're not careful, might derail the entire liberal society we've worked so hard to build. I really hope we didn't burn an entire generation trying to relive the glory days of victimhood. What problems have we actually solved playing identity politics? Exactly zero.

orangepurple 3y ago

He didn't get a loan. His father paid out of pocket, massively harming his own finances to help his children.

bombcar 3y ago
Some would probably argue that having a father who was involved with his life is itself white privilege.
- dcow 3y ago
  And they would be almost offensively wrong about that.