3 ms·

> These are all statistical measures. For any one individual may not see the benefits of these privileges. Grouping everybody into their race and statistics wil

by Timon3 3y ago

> These are all statistical measures. For any one individual may not see the benefits of these privileges. Grouping everybody into their race and statistics will tell you there is variation. That's unavoidable. Some variation is unavoidable, but statistically significant variation isn't! Why should people in those underpriviledged groups accept a society which gives them fewer chances? > There are thousands of homeless white men in my city. Maybe police interactions might be calmer for them, but what does it matter for somebody whose life is sliding downhill often by their own addictions? Yes, it does matter? If police interactions are calmer and you live longer, you have more chances to turn your life around. We as a society have more chances to help them. > This is why the focus on race seems like such a distraction to me. We could be helping the poor when we're still too busy discussing race and ethnicity. We should help the poor, and we should work to remove disparities between races and ethnicities. Why are those things opposed in your mind?

swagasaurus-rex 3y ago
1) Many people of that race may be independently wealthy and do not need help. Grouping people by race is a bad measure of “need” 2) I haven’t heard realistic plans for actually helping people of a specific race. Helping poor people seems achievable, helping black people sounds presumptuous. 3) Race itself is a nebulous grouping with many edge cases. 4) You could easily find other ways to group people to locate “disadvantage”. Religion is an easy one, but affirmative action based of religion sounds quite discriminatory. 5) The focus on race is actually just racist. People’s difficulty of life is not measured by privilege but by actual experiences.
- Timon3 3y ago
  > 1) Many people of that race may be independently wealthy and do not need help. Grouping people by race is a bad measure of “need” But people are being treated badly due to their race. Why can't we use race as one criterium to decide who needs help? Why do we have to pretend that racism isn't a real social thing that affects peoples lives? > 2) I haven’t heard realistic plans for actually helping people of a specific race. Helping poor people seems achievable, helping black people sounds presumptuous. Well, if you define these plans as unrealistic you're not going to find realistic plans. But affirmative action for example is a very realistic plan - so much so that it is (or was) reality! > 3) Race itself is a nebulous grouping with many edge cases. Sure, but people are being treated badly due to those nebulous groupings with many edge cases. Why do we have to ignore that? > 4) You could easily find other ways to group people to locate “disadvantage”. Religion is an easy one, but affirmative action based of religion sounds quite discriminatory. Do you have statistics showing that a similarly statistically significant difference exists between different religions? > 5) The focus on race is actually just racist. People’s difficulty of life is not measured by privilege but by actual experiences. "The people who identify racism are the real racists!" isn't as good of an argument as you think. People have different experiences due to their race. Attempting to find ways to curb that isn't "racist", it's "normal social behavior".
  - swagasaurus-rex 3y ago
    > But people are being treated badly due to their race Unfortunately, I do not think you can force racists to stop being racist. Bigotry is perfectly legal. > affirmative action for example is a very realistic plan It's also kinda racist. > people are being treated badly due to those nebulous groupings This is one of the valid reasons to discuss race. However, I do not see why this means people need "help". What kind of help? How are you going to help? I still have no answers.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      > Unfortunately, I do not think you can force racists to stop being racist. Bigotry is perfectly legal. Why should the affected groups, or society at large, accept this? Why shouldn't we band together to try to make things fair in light of this fact? > It's also kinda racist. Can you explain why? You cited MLK Jr. earlier. He didn't think that AA is racist. Where do you disagree with his position? > This is one of the valid reasons to discuss race. However, I do not see why this means people need "help". What kind of help? How are you going to help? I still have no answers. No, you've gotten answers, you just don't like them. I've explained pretty clearly why this means people need "help", what kind of help and so on.
      - MockObject 3y ago
        > Why should the affected groups, or society at large, accept this? Why shouldn't we band together to try to make things fair in light of this fact? That's exactly what the court just did. It prevented universities from being racist.
        Timon3 3y ago
        I'm trying to take your reply in good faith, but I'm really not understanding. Can you walk me through your thought process? The earlier discussion was: >>> But people are being treated badly due to their race >> Unfortunately, I do not think you can force racists to stop being racist. Bigotry is perfectly legal. > Why should the affected groups, or society at large, accept this? Why shouldn't we band together to try to make things fair in light of this fact? So the court helped black people in regards to the bigotry of racists by "preventing universities from being racist". Your solution to racism is to treat everyone equally - which in turn means that black people just have to accept the bigotry of racists. So your solution is for them to just suck it up. Am I understanding you correctly?

by Timon3 3y ago

swagasaurus-rex 3y ago

1) Many people of that race may be independently wealthy and do not need help. Grouping people by race is a bad measure of “need” 2) I haven’t heard realistic plans for actually helping people of a specific race. Helping poor people seems achievable, helping black people sounds presumptuous. 3) Race itself is a nebulous grouping with many edge cases. 4) You could easily find other ways to group people to locate “disadvantage”. Religion is an easy one, but affirmative action based of religion sounds quite discriminatory. 5) The focus on race is actually just racist. People’s difficulty of life is not measured by privilege but by actual experiences.

Timon3 3y ago
> 1) Many people of that race may be independently wealthy and do not need help. Grouping people by race is a bad measure of “need” But people are being treated badly due to their race. Why can't we use race as one criterium to decide who needs help? Why do we have to pretend that racism isn't a real social thing that affects peoples lives? > 2) I haven’t heard realistic plans for actually helping people of a specific race. Helping poor people seems achievable, helping black people sounds presumptuous. Well, if you define these plans as unrealistic you're not going to find realistic plans. But affirmative action for example is a very realistic plan - so much so that it is (or was) reality! > 3) Race itself is a nebulous grouping with many edge cases. Sure, but people are being treated badly due to those nebulous groupings with many edge cases. Why do we have to ignore that? > 4) You could easily find other ways to group people to locate “disadvantage”. Religion is an easy one, but affirmative action based of religion sounds quite discriminatory. Do you have statistics showing that a similarly statistically significant difference exists between different religions? > 5) The focus on race is actually just racist. People’s difficulty of life is not measured by privilege but by actual experiences. "The people who identify racism are the real racists!" isn't as good of an argument as you think. People have different experiences due to their race. Attempting to find ways to curb that isn't "racist", it's "normal social behavior".
- swagasaurus-rex 3y ago
  > But people are being treated badly due to their race Unfortunately, I do not think you can force racists to stop being racist. Bigotry is perfectly legal. > affirmative action for example is a very realistic plan It's also kinda racist. > people are being treated badly due to those nebulous groupings This is one of the valid reasons to discuss race. However, I do not see why this means people need "help". What kind of help? How are you going to help? I still have no answers.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    > Unfortunately, I do not think you can force racists to stop being racist. Bigotry is perfectly legal. Why should the affected groups, or society at large, accept this? Why shouldn't we band together to try to make things fair in light of this fact? > It's also kinda racist. Can you explain why? You cited MLK Jr. earlier. He didn't think that AA is racist. Where do you disagree with his position? > This is one of the valid reasons to discuss race. However, I do not see why this means people need "help". What kind of help? How are you going to help? I still have no answers. No, you've gotten answers, you just don't like them. I've explained pretty clearly why this means people need "help", what kind of help and so on.
    - MockObject 3y ago
      > Why should the affected groups, or society at large, accept this? Why shouldn't we band together to try to make things fair in light of this fact? That's exactly what the court just did. It prevented universities from being racist.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        I'm trying to take your reply in good faith, but I'm really not understanding. Can you walk me through your thought process? The earlier discussion was: >>> But people are being treated badly due to their race >> Unfortunately, I do not think you can force racists to stop being racist. Bigotry is perfectly legal. > Why should the affected groups, or society at large, accept this? Why shouldn't we band together to try to make things fair in light of this fact? So the court helped black people in regards to the bigotry of racists by "preventing universities from being racist". Your solution to racism is to treat everyone equally - which in turn means that black people just have to accept the bigotry of racists. So your solution is for them to just suck it up. Am I understanding you correctly?