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>>What is your view on the liability of Spencer Composites? Yikes! (good question) I read elsewhere that they were given six weeks to design and build the cy
by toss1 3y ago
>>What is your view on the liability of Spencer Composites?
Yikes!
(good question)
I read elsewhere that they were given six weeks to design and build the cylindrical hull. And that he OceanGate CEO had sourced a bunch of out-of-date prepreg carbon fiber from Boeing, getting a great deal, and said that 'those aerospace guys may need those dates but we don't'.
The right answer to both of those is: "Those ideas are too insane or too stupid to work with us. Either let us help you with a better idea, or come back when you have one".
Six weeks is an insanely short time to even make a few test coupons and a single full-thickness panel and maybe a 50% scale short tube section to test things like curing rates, production methods, compaction/void rates, actual yielded properties, and so forth, plus, whether the epoxy in that out-of-date material was even still any good. At least if you want to have a clue of what you are doing.
Six months is an insanely short time to do development on the titanium endcaps, the surface on the composite tube to which they will mate, the adhesive, the process, etc.
The few snippets of video I saw and the CompositesWorld article [0] indicate that they likely did a decent job with the resources they had.
But, damn, there was a LOT missing.
They said that they worked with NASA, but listening to Sarah Cox, the director of composites at NASA[1], she talks at length about the need for extensive testing at every stage from test coupons (small panels), sub-assemblies, full parts, and in and after operation.
Just the video of the bonding process gave me the creeps. It would be fine for something like an art show piece, or maybe even on a test mule automobile. But there was nothing but a person using a manual straight-edge Bondo applicator (flexible plastic rectangle) trying to spread an even thickness. There was zero protection from any warehouse/shop debris, no evidence that pressure would be applied after the mating, and no vacuum to eliminate entrapped air. I guarantee there were voids, air pockets, unbonded sections under that titanium ring.
The key thing is that undersea does not require less caution than space flight, it requires MORE, a lot more, because the pressures are insane.
As for Spencer Composites' liability, I'm no lawyer, but I'd be worried even if they made the Oceangate CEO sign in blood that the craft was experimental, not their design, only a best effort, and definitely not fit for the intended purpose.
The only thing that might save them is that there were a few dozen dives on the hull before it imploded, so they could say "it worked when we gave it to them, how they abused it, maintained it, monitored it, etc. is not in our control, so not our problem.".
But those sorts of issues are for the lawyers, judges, and juries to sort out. I expect they'll all have more fun than they wanted.
[0] https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/composite-submersibles-under-pressure-in-deep-deep-waters https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/composite-submersib...
[1] https://www.compositesworld.com/podcast/episode/episode-40-sarah-cox-nasa https://www.compositesworld.com/podcast/episode/episode-40-s...
- AlexandrB 3y ago> I read elsewhere that they were given six weeks to design and build the cylindrical hull. And that he OceanGate CEO had sourced a bunch of out-of-date prepreg carbon fiber from Boeing, getting a great deal, and said that 'those aerospace guys may need those dates but we don't'. Apparently Boeing denies this ever happened[1]. The story comes from a claim that Stockton Rush made to a reporter - weird thing to lie about, for sure. [1] https://news.yahoo.com/oceangate-ceo-once-said-titan-180022594.html https://news.yahoo.com/oceangate-ceo-once-said-titan-1800225... > Boeing initially declined to comment, but later said the company "has found no record of any sale of composite material to OceanGate or its CEO."
- toss1 3y agoHe may not have gotten it directly from Boeing. He may have gotten it from any other aerospace mfgr and just claimed/conflated it was Boeing. Most likely, he got it from one of the small herd of composites recyclers who got it from Boeing; so it was from Boeing, but not directly. The path would have been something like [Major Carbon Prepreg Supplier] -> [Boeing] -> [sit in freezer for 19 or 25 months] -> [Recycler] -> [Oceangate]. Thus, "I got a great price on this outdated material from Boeing.", and Boeing has no clue or legitimate involvement. Boeing is also going to want to stay as far away from this as possible, even tho donating/selling known outdated material, specified as such, is perfectly fine. They're just coming out of their own huge issues.
- jacquesm 3y agoThose videos and that article will come back to haunt them.
- jacquesm 3y agoThe lack of vacuum is the first thing that jumped out at me, (besides the material choice to begin with), anybody that has done carbon fiber work and that has done this professionally knows the amount of air that is trapped in a structure this size has to be significant. The second was that one some of the photos there are screws visible that go straight into the carbon fiber part of the hull. If the hull was 5" that means that at least 1.5 or so of that would already be compromised. It looks like we're in full agreement on their liability, I expect OceanGate to come up bankrupt at the first sign of trouble (and we're well past that) so my guess is that the bigger guns will be aimed at Spencer, especially because (1) they are a player and likely have some money and (2) they effectively designed the craft, even if it was on faulty instructions. The number of dives to significant depth on that hull is likely very low. Low single digits. Thank you for the elaborate answer. And super nice company you have.