4 ms·

But the question is whether those wrongs will right themselves and over what time period and at what cost. (Black) Affirmative action seems like a reasonable wa

But the question is whether those wrongs will right themselves and over what time period and at what cost. (Black) Affirmative action seems like a reasonable way to speed that process up, given the strength of network effects (ie who you know) on progress and wealth. IMO compared to helping the poor, its something that should have a stopping point, presumably at least several generations out. Lastly its also about atonement and making amends, also distinct from poor and even other races / genders with a history of oppression. IE when i lived in austin tx I often walked by a statue near the capitol building, erected after the civil war, whose inscription rejects the outcome entirely. Its bananas that thing exists, or that replacing it would be contentious. Yet here we are.

naasking 3y ago
> But the question is whether those wrongs will right themselves and over what time period and at what cost. How can the Holocaust be made right? How can the genocide of the Native Amercians be made right? I think these questions are a distraction at best, probably because they are unanswerable at this time (maybe unanswerable period). If you want to live in a world where people are treated as individuals and where individuals have equal opportunities, then you have to normalize language and behaviours and create systems that treat people as individuals. I agree there will be lingering discriminatory effects, which is why every system should take precautions and have feedback loops for self-correction, like blinding, regular audits, etc. This last part is where most of the failures occur, mostly because they're missing entirely.
- dayvid 3y ago
  The real answer is you have to get anything you want ASAP before people stop caring or it becomes more difficult to achieve. This is why certain groups have received reparations and others haven't. Saying how can we or what can we do is an honest answer at best and a stalling tactic at worst.
- kenjackson 3y ago
  > If you want to live in a world where people are treated as individuals and where individuals have equal opportunities, then you have to normalize language and behaviours and create systems that treat people as individuals. I'd love this world. How do we get poor kids access to the same healthcare as a child (and prenatal) and the same schooling prior to college. It seems like for many Americans this philosophy first applies during college admissions. The first 17 years of everyone's life is apparently equal enough.
  - naasking 3y ago
    > How do we get poor kids access to the same healthcare as a child (and prenatal) Universal healthcare, like everywhere else in the world. > and the same schooling prior to college This one is tougher with wealth disparities, because the wealthy will always have more opportunities and programs available to them. Public funding for after school programs and camps. > The first 17 years of everyone's life is apparently equal enough. Democrats did a good thing with the child tax credit that lifted millions of kids out of poverty. They of course botched it, per usual, by placing a time limit on it, and now it's expired.
    - nightski 3y ago
      Universal healthcare sets a base standard which is fantastic but it in no way equalizes healthcare across the economic spectrum.
      - naasking 3y ago
        I'm frankly not concerned about the 0.1% that can afford to fly to another country for experimental treatments. The US is the primary place for this anyway, so if the US went universal healthcare route, that shrinks the pool even further.
  - Clubber 3y ago
    >How do we get poor kids access to the same healthcare Medicaid attempts to accomplish this. I'm not sure how well. Careful when you say "same," the solution might end up being equally bad for everybody. >same schooling prior to college. Stop funding by zip code, that's the cause of it. Fund by either voting district or entire state.
scarmig 3y ago
[flagged]
- llbeansandrice 3y ago
  There are kids applying to college very literally right now whose parents were legally discriminated against by the Federal government in the 1970s.
  - scarmig 3y ago
    How exactly does present-day affirmative action recompense the victims of racist policies from half a century ago? Are their children materially worse off statistically? Yes, and that should be remedied, by the same methods that everyone who's materially worse off should be uplifted. What racism exists now against their children should be remedied. But victimhood is concrete and not something that's passed on from generation to generation.
    - adbachman 3y ago
      > How exactly does present-day affirmative action recompense the victims of racist policies from half a century ago? Near the top of this thread one specific "how" was discussed. Legacy admissions are affirmative action which offers preferential access based on ancestry. If your parents, your grandparents, or anyone of their race was (legally at the time) forbidden from attending, how else would you have representation in that process? Affirmative action is an artificially generated membership in the "belongs at this institution" club for people who may otherwise be excluded.
      - scarmig 3y ago
        That's missing the point: how does giving person A preferential access to college recompense person B who is distinct from person A? As far as legacy admissions go, they're noxious, but you're not accounting for the ~99% of people who don't have that privilege.
gmarx 3y ago
When Sandra Day O'Connor cast the deciding vote in favor of keeping AA back in 2003 even though she was against it, she suggested it might be done away with after another 25 years. We have had affirmative action in college admissions for 50 plus years now. Seems we would have some data to judge its effectiveness by now. More than 20 years ago I recall some top Harvard people lamenting that at Harvard it was mostly helping people who were black but not descended from American slaves. Also, from what I read it is much heavier than a thumb on the scale

naasking 3y ago

> But the question is whether those wrongs will right themselves and over what time period and at what cost. How can the Holocaust be made right? How can the genocide of the Native Amercians be made right? I think these questions are a distraction at best, probably because they are unanswerable at this time (maybe unanswerable period). If you want to live in a world where people are treated as individuals and where individuals have equal opportunities, then you have to normalize language and behaviours and create systems that treat people as individuals. I agree there will be lingering discriminatory effects, which is why every system should take precautions and have feedback loops for self-correction, like blinding, regular audits, etc. This last part is where most of the failures occur, mostly because they're missing entirely.

dayvid 3y ago
The real answer is you have to get anything you want ASAP before people stop caring or it becomes more difficult to achieve. This is why certain groups have received reparations and others haven't. Saying how can we or what can we do is an honest answer at best and a stalling tactic at worst.
kenjackson 3y ago
> If you want to live in a world where people are treated as individuals and where individuals have equal opportunities, then you have to normalize language and behaviours and create systems that treat people as individuals. I'd love this world. How do we get poor kids access to the same healthcare as a child (and prenatal) and the same schooling prior to college. It seems like for many Americans this philosophy first applies during college admissions. The first 17 years of everyone's life is apparently equal enough.
- naasking 3y ago
  > How do we get poor kids access to the same healthcare as a child (and prenatal) Universal healthcare, like everywhere else in the world. > and the same schooling prior to college This one is tougher with wealth disparities, because the wealthy will always have more opportunities and programs available to them. Public funding for after school programs and camps. > The first 17 years of everyone's life is apparently equal enough. Democrats did a good thing with the child tax credit that lifted millions of kids out of poverty. They of course botched it, per usual, by placing a time limit on it, and now it's expired.
  - nightski 3y ago
    Universal healthcare sets a base standard which is fantastic but it in no way equalizes healthcare across the economic spectrum.
    - naasking 3y ago
      I'm frankly not concerned about the 0.1% that can afford to fly to another country for experimental treatments. The US is the primary place for this anyway, so if the US went universal healthcare route, that shrinks the pool even further.
- Clubber 3y ago
  >How do we get poor kids access to the same healthcare Medicaid attempts to accomplish this. I'm not sure how well. Careful when you say "same," the solution might end up being equally bad for everybody. >same schooling prior to college. Stop funding by zip code, that's the cause of it. Fund by either voting district or entire state.

scarmig 3y ago

[flagged]

llbeansandrice 3y ago
There are kids applying to college very literally right now whose parents were legally discriminated against by the Federal government in the 1970s.
- scarmig 3y ago
  How exactly does present-day affirmative action recompense the victims of racist policies from half a century ago? Are their children materially worse off statistically? Yes, and that should be remedied, by the same methods that everyone who's materially worse off should be uplifted. What racism exists now against their children should be remedied. But victimhood is concrete and not something that's passed on from generation to generation.
  - adbachman 3y ago
    > How exactly does present-day affirmative action recompense the victims of racist policies from half a century ago? Near the top of this thread one specific "how" was discussed. Legacy admissions are affirmative action which offers preferential access based on ancestry. If your parents, your grandparents, or anyone of their race was (legally at the time) forbidden from attending, how else would you have representation in that process? Affirmative action is an artificially generated membership in the "belongs at this institution" club for people who may otherwise be excluded.
    - scarmig 3y ago
      That's missing the point: how does giving person A preferential access to college recompense person B who is distinct from person A? As far as legacy admissions go, they're noxious, but you're not accounting for the ~99% of people who don't have that privilege.

gmarx 3y ago

When Sandra Day O'Connor cast the deciding vote in favor of keeping AA back in 2003 even though she was against it, she suggested it might be done away with after another 25 years. We have had affirmative action in college admissions for 50 plus years now. Seems we would have some data to judge its effectiveness by now. More than 20 years ago I recall some top Harvard people lamenting that at Harvard it was mostly helping people who were black but not descended from American slaves. Also, from what I read it is much heavier than a thumb on the scale