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Where do they draw the line? What about DLSS? Doesn't any game using that have "AI generated graphics"? I guess their email wording focused specifically on asse

by bilalq 3y ago

Where do they draw the line? What about DLSS? Doesn't any game using that have "AI generated graphics"? I guess their email wording focused specifically on assets. Does that mean if you don't pre-bake assets in as artifacts, you're fine?

giobox 3y ago
There is very clearly a line most people will understand between what DLSS does, and generating completely new art that mimic existing intellectual property. No one is ever going to accuse DLSS of creating new art works containing some other legal entity's existing IP for example, its literally just a (very clever) upscaling of the original art. If it did, it would presumably render the game being upscaled almost unplayable as it would be changing the output to a state unrecognizable from the input frame.
- bilalq 3y ago
  There may be a line between there somewhere, but it's not at all clear where it is. What about generating foliage or varied ground textures? What about generating buildings? Or NPCs? Also, the "just upscaling" relies on training data from outside your own game. Why is that okay when the rest of this isn't? I totally get why Valve is taking the stance that they are. I imagine its hard even for them to know where to draw the line (evidenced by how long the turnaround time was on the support response).
  - giobox 3y ago
    > What about generating foliage or varied ground textures? What about generating buildings? Or NPCs? This isn't how NVidia DLSS or AMD FSR works at all. DLSS/FSR can't create new buildings or foliage, or NPCs, so hard to foresee problems of the kind Valve are concerned with. Same for varied ground textures- the entire point of the technology is to sharpen and upscale the original image, or in case of DLSS3 inject new matching frames. The only "risk" to DLSS is in Nvidia's own training data, but there is no "risk" of another company's existing IP leaking into final frame - again if there was, gamers wouldn't want to use it, as its destroying the original frame! If the resulting frame isn't a near perfect match for the original, DLSS has failed. Thankfully it does nearly perfectly match the original in use and alongside AMD's FSR 2.0 stuff has been one of the best advancements in gaming technology of recent years - effectively significant FPS boost "for free" on same hardware. > https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/technologies/dlss/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/technologies/dlss/ > https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/fidelityfx-super-resolution https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/fidelityfx-super-resolut... While the line may be gray for other AI technologies in gaming, such as using it create new original textures or models, DLSS/FSR is just a really good upscaler - no "new" content being created and therefore no risk of IP infringement. To be really blunt; FSR and DLSS are in almost every new game for the last couple of years on both PC and console across literally hundreds of games now - if there was IP infringement issues, we would know by now - we are already onto second/third generations of these upscalers.
    - bilalq 3y ago
      Apologies if I was unclear. I didn't mean to suggest that DLSS generates textures. I was raising the question about whether or not generated textures would be in violation of the policy. And if they're fine, what about generated buildings or NPCs? It's fine that DLSS is considered compliant. My point is that it's not at all clear where we draw the line.
qmarchi 3y ago
DLSS is trained on the games themselves no?
- entropicdrifter 3y ago
  It used to be trained on specific games, but I think most of the time it isn't nowadays outside of a few major titles
- giobox 3y ago
  DLSS requires no training on your own game to use - you just use the pre-trained system NVidia provides, IIRC. So it has been trained on game data, but not necessarily yours.
- pawelduda 3y ago
  There isn't one trained model per game I think, to update DLSS manually you just replace a .dll file.
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pavon 3y ago
With DLSS Steam isn't hosting and distributing AI generated content, Nvidia is distributing it with their drivers. So any liability regarding the source of the training datasets falls on Nvidia, and there is no reason for Steam to get involved.
- bilalq 3y ago
  That seems reasonable at first glance, but how is that different from the game downloading generated content or models used for inference from its own servers after Steam distribution? If you argue that the code being used to access it is distributed, then what about the code to integrate with DLSS APIs on Steam distributed games?

by bilalq 3y ago

giobox 3y ago

There is very clearly a line most people will understand between what DLSS does, and generating completely new art that mimic existing intellectual property. No one is ever going to accuse DLSS of creating new art works containing some other legal entity's existing IP for example, its literally just a (very clever) upscaling of the original art. If it did, it would presumably render the game being upscaled almost unplayable as it would be changing the output to a state unrecognizable from the input frame.

bilalq 3y ago
There may be a line between there somewhere, but it's not at all clear where it is. What about generating foliage or varied ground textures? What about generating buildings? Or NPCs? Also, the "just upscaling" relies on training data from outside your own game. Why is that okay when the rest of this isn't? I totally get why Valve is taking the stance that they are. I imagine its hard even for them to know where to draw the line (evidenced by how long the turnaround time was on the support response).
- giobox 3y ago
  > What about generating foliage or varied ground textures? What about generating buildings? Or NPCs? This isn't how NVidia DLSS or AMD FSR works at all. DLSS/FSR can't create new buildings or foliage, or NPCs, so hard to foresee problems of the kind Valve are concerned with. Same for varied ground textures- the entire point of the technology is to sharpen and upscale the original image, or in case of DLSS3 inject new matching frames. The only "risk" to DLSS is in Nvidia's own training data, but there is no "risk" of another company's existing IP leaking into final frame - again if there was, gamers wouldn't want to use it, as its destroying the original frame! If the resulting frame isn't a near perfect match for the original, DLSS has failed. Thankfully it does nearly perfectly match the original in use and alongside AMD's FSR 2.0 stuff has been one of the best advancements in gaming technology of recent years - effectively significant FPS boost "for free" on same hardware. > https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/technologies/dlss/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/technologies/dlss/ > https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/fidelityfx-super-resolution https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/fidelityfx-super-resolut... While the line may be gray for other AI technologies in gaming, such as using it create new original textures or models, DLSS/FSR is just a really good upscaler - no "new" content being created and therefore no risk of IP infringement. To be really blunt; FSR and DLSS are in almost every new game for the last couple of years on both PC and console across literally hundreds of games now - if there was IP infringement issues, we would know by now - we are already onto second/third generations of these upscalers.
  - bilalq 3y ago
    Apologies if I was unclear. I didn't mean to suggest that DLSS generates textures. I was raising the question about whether or not generated textures would be in violation of the policy. And if they're fine, what about generated buildings or NPCs? It's fine that DLSS is considered compliant. My point is that it's not at all clear where we draw the line.

qmarchi 3y ago

DLSS is trained on the games themselves no?

entropicdrifter 3y ago
It used to be trained on specific games, but I think most of the time it isn't nowadays outside of a few major titles
giobox 3y ago
DLSS requires no training on your own game to use - you just use the pre-trained system NVidia provides, IIRC. So it has been trained on game data, but not necessarily yours.
pawelduda 3y ago
There isn't one trained model per game I think, to update DLSS manually you just replace a .dll file.

deleted 3y ago

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pavon 3y ago

With DLSS Steam isn't hosting and distributing AI generated content, Nvidia is distributing it with their drivers. So any liability regarding the source of the training datasets falls on Nvidia, and there is no reason for Steam to get involved.

bilalq 3y ago
That seems reasonable at first glance, but how is that different from the game downloading generated content or models used for inference from its own servers after Steam distribution? If you argue that the code being used to access it is distributed, then what about the code to integrate with DLSS APIs on Steam distributed games?