4 ms·

I had no impostor syndrome. Many of my peers didn't either; it's certainly not the case that almost everyone feels it. There seemed to be little correlation bet

by blagie 3y ago

I had no impostor syndrome. Many of my peers didn't either; it's certainly not the case that almost everyone feels it. There seemed to be little correlation between ability and impostor syndrome too, so it's not a question of ability. But I digress. Decades out, and understanding university admissions in-and-out: 1) At least an order of magnitude more people "belong" at MIT than there's space for. Elitist universities manufacture scarcity. 2) It's a pretty random process if you get in or not. The level of noise in admissions is huge. 3) It's not a meritocracy otherwise. There isn't a single axis of "quality," and if there were, it's not what admissions selects for. A lot of this became public with the Harvard lawsuit, where it turned out close to half of white students at Harvard got in through back doors (alumni, legacy, children of faculty, athletics, etc.). MIT is different, but no better. 4) Where you go matters a lot less than we make it out to. So much of MIT (and other elite schools) is about building out alumni as brand ambassadors. It's like the magic of Disney -- manufactured by PR departments to fool people. MIT builds itself on being hyper-elite, but there's no difference in quality of individuals at MIT, Georgia Tech, or many other good schools. 5) The elite school advantage is mostly in having a brand stamp and a power network when you graduate, not educational. That helps a lot of you're trying to be a CEO, faculty member, or similar, but not so much for the jobs 90% of my MIT-graduating peers are in. The educational outcomes are the same. Unfortunately, the "best-and-brightest" brand-building leads to things like impostor syndrome. It may help if you know you were manipulated, but it probably won't. It's pretty deeply embedded in most graduates, and even if you know everything in this post internally, most people take decades to internalize it. Breaking conditioning is hard.

sanderjd 3y ago
> 1) At least an order of magnitude more people "belong" at MIT than there's space for. Elitist universities manufacture scarcity. This is how I've always felt when I'm involved in hiring (especially when I was at Google). I don't relate to the whole "nobody can do fizzbuzz" thing at all. There are so many ridiculously smart and talented people out there, and so many bottlenecks letting fewer of them through than would actually be capable of succeeding. I think it ends up being almost entirely luck who gets through these bottlenecks and who doesn't, because of this. I have found it very dispiriting to see candidates who I felt were definitely better than me be rejected by hiring processes that I made it through, and realizing that I was just lucky and they were just unlucky.
- googhopeful000 3y ago
  as someone who's going through the Google hiring pipeline right now (as a candidate), I just wanted to say thanks for these nice words of encouragement / rational thinking about all of this. the process (this isn't Google's fault) feels quite a bit like a semi-objective judgement about my competency and worth (both as a professional... and individual). sure, I know I "shouldn't" think like that, but it's overall very very tough. thanks for a clear headed view on it all.
  - blagie 3y ago
    Hiring is a die roll. Here's a good model: - You want to hire someone with a competency of 100 units - A bad hire is expensive, and you definitely don't want one slipping in. - There is a noise floor in the interview process of 50 units - This means you need to set the hiring bar at 150 units to be sure no one below 100 units slips in This means the vast majority of qualified people won't be hired (which is okay; the cost of a lost hire is low), but you're very unlikely to get the person who can't pass fizzbuzz. The flip side is that the job applications are saturated with idiots. Consider this model: - You have 100 people in a work force. - 95 are qualified, and quickly find jobs after 1-6 interviews. They stay in those jobs until they get bored, typically 3-10 years. - Five can barely tie their shoelaces. They send out hundreds of resumes until they get hired, and then stay in jobs until they're found to be incompetent and fired, typically 3-6 months. Although there are O(20x) as many qualified people as unqualified, they'll send out at most 100 resumes per year, and so job applications are dominated by the unqualified ones. This means hiring needs a very high noise floor, indeed, and a few idiots will still sneak in. This is oversimplified in a millions ways, but it's why you probably won't get a Google offer no matter how good you are. Interviews have a huge noise floor, and to be hired, you need to be qualified AND have a good day. How good a day depends on how qualified you are, but that's why you see twitter posts from world-famous developers about not qualifying for this job or the other.
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  This was part of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Everyone loves to focus on people of lower ability having an inflated view of their competence in a specific area, but the other side of the research was people of above average aptitude collapsing down their expertise to get closer to the mean. Maybe you’re just being too kind.
kernal 3y ago
>2) It's a pretty random process if you get in or not. The level of noise in admissions is huge. So the person that got into Stanford by writing #BlackLivesMastter 100 times was just a coincidence?
- Jcowell 3y ago
  I mean, why wouldn’t you let in a kid that has the balls to try that i’m their college essay?
  - kernal 3y ago
    Considering he wasn't Asian or White it was automatic.
    - Jcowell 3y ago
      As someone who’s worked in a college admission office I assure you that this person could have easily gone into the no bin as they did in the yea bin regardless of who they see. it was more the luck of draw the admission counselors found it amusing or ballsy than the color of the skin. And that’s what you need at institutions like these. interesting people with the ability to succeed and take chances.
azinman2 3y ago
I would disagree with your larger point. While I didn’t go to GATech (although I did get in), I did go to MIT and a UC as well as a state school and community college. I’ve also worked for a couple of FAANGS, startups, etc. So I’ve seen a diversity of environments and the people in them. MIT by far had the highest concentration of top talent of anywhere I’ve been. It also had _culturally_ the most ambition which pushed people into excellence, even if they didn’t know they were capable of it. I was in an honors society at my UC, and there were very bright people who went onto top graduate schools, but overall the percentage of them was lower in the school (which was already hard to get into), and the ambition level was much less despite (for this group) raw talent being similar. Of course there are more people who deserve to be there than there is room. But keeping it small allows it to achieve something special that being bigger wouldn’t allow. Those that do make it in are by and large absolutely top talent. So it’s not just education and network that matters. I’d argue culture is one of the most important under-appreciated aspects. And MIT culture is top notch.
- blagie 3y ago
  Culture matters. I deliberately picked engineering/computer/mathy nerd schools for my list. A typical UC, a Calstate, or a community college won't be a nerd school. A better point-of-comparison for UC computer science would be a Harvard, Penn, or Yale. At this point, I would say Georgia Tech has better culture than MIT. MIT is brand-obsessed and increasingly sleazy. Georgia Tech is roughly where MIT was in 1990, which is a much better nerd culture.

by blagie 3y ago

sanderjd 3y ago

> 1) At least an order of magnitude more people "belong" at MIT than there's space for. Elitist universities manufacture scarcity. This is how I've always felt when I'm involved in hiring (especially when I was at Google). I don't relate to the whole "nobody can do fizzbuzz" thing at all. There are so many ridiculously smart and talented people out there, and so many bottlenecks letting fewer of them through than would actually be capable of succeeding. I think it ends up being almost entirely luck who gets through these bottlenecks and who doesn't, because of this. I have found it very dispiriting to see candidates who I felt were definitely better than me be rejected by hiring processes that I made it through, and realizing that I was just lucky and they were just unlucky.

googhopeful000 3y ago
as someone who's going through the Google hiring pipeline right now (as a candidate), I just wanted to say thanks for these nice words of encouragement / rational thinking about all of this. the process (this isn't Google's fault) feels quite a bit like a semi-objective judgement about my competency and worth (both as a professional... and individual). sure, I know I "shouldn't" think like that, but it's overall very very tough. thanks for a clear headed view on it all.
- blagie 3y ago
  Hiring is a die roll. Here's a good model: - You want to hire someone with a competency of 100 units - A bad hire is expensive, and you definitely don't want one slipping in. - There is a noise floor in the interview process of 50 units - This means you need to set the hiring bar at 150 units to be sure no one below 100 units slips in This means the vast majority of qualified people won't be hired (which is okay; the cost of a lost hire is low), but you're very unlikely to get the person who can't pass fizzbuzz. The flip side is that the job applications are saturated with idiots. Consider this model: - You have 100 people in a work force. - 95 are qualified, and quickly find jobs after 1-6 interviews. They stay in those jobs until they get bored, typically 3-10 years. - Five can barely tie their shoelaces. They send out hundreds of resumes until they get hired, and then stay in jobs until they're found to be incompetent and fired, typically 3-6 months. Although there are O(20x) as many qualified people as unqualified, they'll send out at most 100 resumes per year, and so job applications are dominated by the unqualified ones. This means hiring needs a very high noise floor, indeed, and a few idiots will still sneak in. This is oversimplified in a millions ways, but it's why you probably won't get a Google offer no matter how good you are. Interviews have a huge noise floor, and to be hired, you need to be qualified AND have a good day. How good a day depends on how qualified you are, but that's why you see twitter posts from world-famous developers about not qualifying for this job or the other.
MarkMarine 3y ago
This was part of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Everyone loves to focus on people of lower ability having an inflated view of their competence in a specific area, but the other side of the research was people of above average aptitude collapsing down their expertise to get closer to the mean. Maybe you’re just being too kind.

kernal 3y ago

>2) It's a pretty random process if you get in or not. The level of noise in admissions is huge. So the person that got into Stanford by writing #BlackLivesMastter 100 times was just a coincidence?

Jcowell 3y ago
I mean, why wouldn’t you let in a kid that has the balls to try that i’m their college essay?
- kernal 3y ago
  Considering he wasn't Asian or White it was automatic.
  - Jcowell 3y ago
    As someone who’s worked in a college admission office I assure you that this person could have easily gone into the no bin as they did in the yea bin regardless of who they see. it was more the luck of draw the admission counselors found it amusing or ballsy than the color of the skin. And that’s what you need at institutions like these. interesting people with the ability to succeed and take chances.

azinman2 3y ago

I would disagree with your larger point. While I didn’t go to GATech (although I did get in), I did go to MIT and a UC as well as a state school and community college. I’ve also worked for a couple of FAANGS, startups, etc. So I’ve seen a diversity of environments and the people in them. MIT by far had the highest concentration of top talent of anywhere I’ve been. It also had _culturally_ the most ambition which pushed people into excellence, even if they didn’t know they were capable of it. I was in an honors society at my UC, and there were very bright people who went onto top graduate schools, but overall the percentage of them was lower in the school (which was already hard to get into), and the ambition level was much less despite (for this group) raw talent being similar. Of course there are more people who deserve to be there than there is room. But keeping it small allows it to achieve something special that being bigger wouldn’t allow. Those that do make it in are by and large absolutely top talent. So it’s not just education and network that matters. I’d argue culture is one of the most important under-appreciated aspects. And MIT culture is top notch.

blagie 3y ago
Culture matters. I deliberately picked engineering/computer/mathy nerd schools for my list. A typical UC, a Calstate, or a community college won't be a nerd school. A better point-of-comparison for UC computer science would be a Harvard, Penn, or Yale. At this point, I would say Georgia Tech has better culture than MIT. MIT is brand-obsessed and increasingly sleazy. Georgia Tech is roughly where MIT was in 1990, which is a much better nerd culture.