3 ms·

As someone not from the US, this whole Affirmative Actions seems to just be reversed racism. I.e. in the end more-or-less still unfair. Better to just remove r

by Maxion 3y ago

As someone not from the US, this whole Affirmative Actions seems to just be reversed racism. I.e. in the end more-or-less still unfair. Better to just remove race all together, and e.g. require college admissions by law to be judged without knowing the applicants name or ethnicity. To me as an outsider, the US focuses wayyyyy to much on race. Race really does not matter, and no matter how much the US claims to be racism free, the degree to which it is focused on just proves that the US isn't free of racism. Even asking for ones race or ethnicity in my country would be considered descriminatory as there can be no purpose for collecting that information that isn't descriminatory. Discriminating based on race (among other things) is forbidden in the constitution, and that is absolute.

AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
> Affirmative Actions seems to just be reversed racism. I.e. in the end more-or-less still unfair. It's not even reversed racism, it's just plain old racism. The only difference is the targets of the racism are European descended and Asian descended people instead of African and Latin American descended people.
1234letshaveatw 3y ago
This post reeks of smugness. I hope you aren't from western Europe, as you can easily see that there is discrimination based on race with regards to eg policing- where crimes committed by certain individuals of a protected status aren't even allowed to be reported on. And FYI- equality is also enshrined in the US constitution, but constitutions are (universally) subject to interpretation
MisterBastahrd 3y ago
If it were absolute, then affirmative action would never have been necessary in the first place.
- peterfirefly 3y ago
  They weren't...
ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
The socioeconomic class of the family is the highest indicator of socioeconomic class of the children in that family. In America, the socioeconomic class of people of non-white races has been systematically kept as low as possible, through racist systems. Affirmative action (race based admissions quotas) is one tool to breach that ceiling. In an already racist system, doing something like economic class based support (example: 20% of college admissions need to come from poor households) would just mostly go to the privileged race and perpetuate the systemic racism. Your post is also an illustration of what white privilege can look like. I know you said you’re not American, but the tone matches to a T. White people don’t realize the negative effects of racism on others and others family history and can’t even conceive of it. From having cab drivers not willing to pick you up, to not getting a job or being passed over for promotions, let alone going to schools that are under funded. And as a side effect of that racism towards non-whites, white people benefit by getting the can, the job, the promotion, the good schools that the non-whites, but equally qualified did not. And as the head paragraph states, that gets embedded into society in the socioeconomic trajectory of the family.
- gwright 3y ago
  > In America, the socioeconomic class of people of non-white races has been systematically kept as low as possible, through racist systems. Affirmative action (race based admissions quotas) is one tool to breach that ceiling. According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... The per capita income for "whites" in the US is $36,962 The per capita income for the following groups is higher than that: Indian, Taiwanese, Japanese, Chinese, Korean. Similar results for median household incomes. I couldn't easily find the data but I've seen previous reports of sub-groups of "blacks" that also have higher median incomes than whites (as a group). Ahh, here is an article talking about the success of Nigerian immigrants, as an example. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231211001971 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231211001... Please explain how to reconcile this data with your statement.
parineum 3y ago
When I was growing up ('90s, 00s), that was the "movement" and teaching that was going on. It's colloquially known as being "colorblind". It has radically shifted the opposite direction. It's the difference between equality and equity, equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome. I don't know what's right or wrong really but I can say that the rapidness of the shift was definitely shocking to me. There's a lot of disagreement between Gen X, Millenials and Gen Z on the topic because of it.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  It's because no matter how much you tell people "don't see race", it doesn't stop a large percentage from being raised by explicitly racist people, of the "That football player is acting like a n***" type. If the people who understand that racism is bad do nothing, and the racists are the only ones who act on stuff, what do you think happens? You can't counteract racism with silence.
  - megaman821 3y ago
    Is there any shred of evidence that a large percentage of people are raised by explicitly racist people? That is just total fantasy on your part.
peterfirefly 3y ago
[flagged]
- cuteboy19 3y ago
  The previous decisions were never intended to be permanent in the first place
xienze 3y ago
> Better to just remove race all together, and e.g. require college admissions by law to be judged without knowing the applicants name or ethnicity. Believe me, this has been considered and tried in various contexts. The problem is that in the end schools and companies find out that they don't achieve the "right" mix of ethnicities and genders and so it's back to square one.
- megaman821 3y ago
  They tried this with orchestra auditions by doing them behind a curtain but they didn't end up with the "right" mix. As of yet they haven't figure out how people's auditory senses are racist.
throw38264 3y ago
China had this policy as well. Minorities, like the Uyghurs, were exempt from the 1-child policy and they got extra points on the national college exam.
Clubber 3y ago
>this whole Affirmative Actions seems to just be reversed racism It is, but it is an attempt to right a wrong, which isn't an easy thing to do or measure. It's a moralistic endeavor and moralistic endeavors can become monsters in their own right. >To me as an outsider, the US focuses wayyyyy to much on race. It's become a political football, because of this, I think it's perpetuating it more than it would be naturally. Morgan Freeman articulated this well many years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpnpIhqSLto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpnpIhqSLto >Even asking for ones race or ethnicity in my country would be considered descriminatory as there can be no purpose for collecting that information that isn't descriminatory. It's funny, this is done to ensure that historically oppressed races are measured for success / failure. It seems to support to your reverse racism comment. >Discriminating based on race (among other things) is forbidden in the constitution, and that is absolute. I agree, that's why AA was struck down. It's a clear violation of the 14th amendment. This was known at the time and known in the early 2000's (2003?) when this came up before. It's always been considered an emergency measure that would need to end because it was a clear violation of equal protection under the law clause of the 14th. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
foogazi 3y ago
Race gets brought up every time Even Clarence Thomas is referred as “the second black Supreme Court Justice” Every time you will see this first black baseball player, first black governor, first latina… as if it were an achievement instead of an indictment on the country

by Maxion 3y ago

AlgorithmicTime 3y ago

> Affirmative Actions seems to just be reversed racism. I.e. in the end more-or-less still unfair. It's not even reversed racism, it's just plain old racism. The only difference is the targets of the racism are European descended and Asian descended people instead of African and Latin American descended people.

1234letshaveatw 3y ago

This post reeks of smugness. I hope you aren't from western Europe, as you can easily see that there is discrimination based on race with regards to eg policing- where crimes committed by certain individuals of a protected status aren't even allowed to be reported on. And FYI- equality is also enshrined in the US constitution, but constitutions are (universally) subject to interpretation

MisterBastahrd 3y ago

If it were absolute, then affirmative action would never have been necessary in the first place.

peterfirefly 3y ago
They weren't...

ScoobleDoodle 3y ago

The socioeconomic class of the family is the highest indicator of socioeconomic class of the children in that family. In America, the socioeconomic class of people of non-white races has been systematically kept as low as possible, through racist systems. Affirmative action (race based admissions quotas) is one tool to breach that ceiling. In an already racist system, doing something like economic class based support (example: 20% of college admissions need to come from poor households) would just mostly go to the privileged race and perpetuate the systemic racism. Your post is also an illustration of what white privilege can look like. I know you said you’re not American, but the tone matches to a T. White people don’t realize the negative effects of racism on others and others family history and can’t even conceive of it. From having cab drivers not willing to pick you up, to not getting a job or being passed over for promotions, let alone going to schools that are under funded. And as a side effect of that racism towards non-whites, white people benefit by getting the can, the job, the promotion, the good schools that the non-whites, but equally qualified did not. And as the head paragraph states, that gets embedded into society in the socioeconomic trajectory of the family.

gwright 3y ago
> In America, the socioeconomic class of people of non-white races has been systematically kept as low as possible, through racist systems. Affirmative action (race based admissions quotas) is one tool to breach that ceiling. According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... The per capita income for "whites" in the US is $36,962 The per capita income for the following groups is higher than that: Indian, Taiwanese, Japanese, Chinese, Korean. Similar results for median household incomes. I couldn't easily find the data but I've seen previous reports of sub-groups of "blacks" that also have higher median incomes than whites (as a group). Ahh, here is an article talking about the success of Nigerian immigrants, as an example. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231211001971 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231211001... Please explain how to reconcile this data with your statement.

parineum 3y ago

When I was growing up ('90s, 00s), that was the "movement" and teaching that was going on. It's colloquially known as being "colorblind". It has radically shifted the opposite direction. It's the difference between equality and equity, equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome. I don't know what's right or wrong really but I can say that the rapidness of the shift was definitely shocking to me. There's a lot of disagreement between Gen X, Millenials and Gen Z on the topic because of it.

mrguyorama 3y ago
It's because no matter how much you tell people "don't see race", it doesn't stop a large percentage from being raised by explicitly racist people, of the "That football player is acting like a n***" type. If the people who understand that racism is bad do nothing, and the racists are the only ones who act on stuff, what do you think happens? You can't counteract racism with silence.
- megaman821 3y ago
  Is there any shred of evidence that a large percentage of people are raised by explicitly racist people? That is just total fantasy on your part.

peterfirefly 3y ago

[flagged]

cuteboy19 3y ago
The previous decisions were never intended to be permanent in the first place

xienze 3y ago

> Better to just remove race all together, and e.g. require college admissions by law to be judged without knowing the applicants name or ethnicity. Believe me, this has been considered and tried in various contexts. The problem is that in the end schools and companies find out that they don't achieve the "right" mix of ethnicities and genders and so it's back to square one.

megaman821 3y ago
They tried this with orchestra auditions by doing them behind a curtain but they didn't end up with the "right" mix. As of yet they haven't figure out how people's auditory senses are racist.

throw38264 3y ago

China had this policy as well. Minorities, like the Uyghurs, were exempt from the 1-child policy and they got extra points on the national college exam.

Clubber 3y ago

>this whole Affirmative Actions seems to just be reversed racism It is, but it is an attempt to right a wrong, which isn't an easy thing to do or measure. It's a moralistic endeavor and moralistic endeavors can become monsters in their own right. >To me as an outsider, the US focuses wayyyyy to much on race. It's become a political football, because of this, I think it's perpetuating it more than it would be naturally. Morgan Freeman articulated this well many years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpnpIhqSLto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpnpIhqSLto >Even asking for ones race or ethnicity in my country would be considered descriminatory as there can be no purpose for collecting that information that isn't descriminatory. It's funny, this is done to ensure that historically oppressed races are measured for success / failure. It seems to support to your reverse racism comment. >Discriminating based on race (among other things) is forbidden in the constitution, and that is absolute. I agree, that's why AA was struck down. It's a clear violation of the 14th amendment. This was known at the time and known in the early 2000's (2003?) when this came up before. It's always been considered an emergency measure that would need to end because it was a clear violation of equal protection under the law clause of the 14th. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

foogazi 3y ago

Race gets brought up every time Even Clarence Thomas is referred as “the second black Supreme Court Justice” Every time you will see this first black baseball player, first black governor, first latina… as if it were an achievement instead of an indictment on the country