4 ms·

I mean, in a vacuum, it makes no sense but in this case, I agree with KBJ's dissent. In a country with a historical baggage like US, something like this is need

by b0sk 3y ago

I mean, in a vacuum, it makes no sense but in this case, I agree with KBJ's dissent. In a country with a historical baggage like US, something like this is needed.

sp527 3y ago
Plenty of other identity groups have suffered heavy discrimination across US history (Irish, Italians, Japanese, Jews, to name a few). They don't seem to require a policy like affirmative action to ensure they obtain a fair proportion of seats at top universities. Plenty of highly impoverished immigrants arrive in the US and have children that academically outperform the kids of very privileged parents. What's needed is not affirmative action but a more honest appraisal about what the real obstacles are for Black and Hispanic students. And perhaps we'll discover that those obstacles cannot in fact be legislated out of existence.
- prottog 3y ago
  > a more honest appraisal about what the real obstacles are for Black and Hispanic students Different cultural and ethnic groups value different things. Virtually nobody who clamors for more black and Hispanic representation in Harvard's undergrad class, for example, also clamors for more Asian representation in the NFL, even though that disparity is much, much greater, with only a single-digit number of current players.
LorenPechtel 3y ago
Affirmative action is basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. The beneficiaries weren't discriminated against, the people losing out weren't discriminators. There is a problem--but it's a matter of why they aren't as qualified. Pretending they are isn't going to fix the actual problem.
- bodhi_mind 3y ago
  I understand your perspective, but it's essential to consider the historical context and systemic impact of discriminatory practices such as redlining. While affirmative action aims to address the long-standing inequalities faced by marginalized communities, it's not about "robbing Peter to pay Paul." Redlining, a discriminatory practice prevalent in the mid-1900s, systematically denied access to housing loans and opportunities to minority communities based on race. As a result, neighborhoods predominantly inhabited by minorities were deprived of investment, economic growth, and wealth accumulation. This created a cycle of limited opportunities and limited access to resources that persists today. Over time, this has led to a significant wealth gap between racial groups. Affirmative action seeks to address this imbalance by providing opportunities for marginalized individuals to overcome historical disadvantages and achieve upward mobility.
  - bitcurious 3y ago
    “The proof is in the pudding” if we’re sticking with idioms. Where the evidence of systemic racism is a lack of wealth, discriminate on wealth. Where the evidence is family structure, discriminate on family structure. Address disadvantage by addressing disadvantage, not by a racial proxy. In programmer terms, racial affirmative action is a very lossy hash of reality, which leaves a lot of room for injustice both in terms of who it helps and who it doesn’t.
  - pfannkuchen 3y ago
    > Redlining As an aside, I’ve always been confused about the dynamics of redlining. Wouldn’t refusing to give any mortgages for a neighborhood reduce the cost of buying a house there? Is the idea that it was purchased by landlords and everyone was made to rent instead of buying? Lowering housing costs for a group generally doesn’t seem like a bad thing…
  - LorenPechtel 3y ago
    You're explaining why it came about, not why it's not an evil. As for redlining--while it certainly existed in the past I noticed something when there was a flap about it a while back. There was a very detailed article in the local newspaper about local "redlining". However, it didn't make sense--why would bankers only discriminate against black neighborhoods with low-down mortgages? If black is relevant why not all mortgages? How about a simpler explanation that fits the facts? Something stood out to me about their map--the map of the "redlined" zip codes exactly matched an earlier article about appreciation. Suppose the bankers are looking at the chance a house ends up underwater a few years down the road? That gives no inconvenient inconsistencies in their behavior. Yes, it hurt the neighborhood but there's no racism involved, just simple economics.
jupp0r 3y ago
The assumption that Germany has no historical baggage is pretty bold.
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  Yes, but Germany currently also discriminates against formerly discriminated groups.

by b0sk 3y ago

I mean, in a vacuum, it makes no sense but in this case, I agree with KBJ's dissent. In a country with a historical baggage like US, something like this is needed.

sp527 3y ago

Plenty of other identity groups have suffered heavy discrimination across US history (Irish, Italians, Japanese, Jews, to name a few). They don't seem to require a policy like affirmative action to ensure they obtain a fair proportion of seats at top universities. Plenty of highly impoverished immigrants arrive in the US and have children that academically outperform the kids of very privileged parents. What's needed is not affirmative action but a more honest appraisal about what the real obstacles are for Black and Hispanic students. And perhaps we'll discover that those obstacles cannot in fact be legislated out of existence.

prottog 3y ago
> a more honest appraisal about what the real obstacles are for Black and Hispanic students Different cultural and ethnic groups value different things. Virtually nobody who clamors for more black and Hispanic representation in Harvard's undergrad class, for example, also clamors for more Asian representation in the NFL, even though that disparity is much, much greater, with only a single-digit number of current players.

LorenPechtel 3y ago

Affirmative action is basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. The beneficiaries weren't discriminated against, the people losing out weren't discriminators. There is a problem--but it's a matter of why they aren't as qualified. Pretending they are isn't going to fix the actual problem.

bodhi_mind 3y ago
I understand your perspective, but it's essential to consider the historical context and systemic impact of discriminatory practices such as redlining. While affirmative action aims to address the long-standing inequalities faced by marginalized communities, it's not about "robbing Peter to pay Paul." Redlining, a discriminatory practice prevalent in the mid-1900s, systematically denied access to housing loans and opportunities to minority communities based on race. As a result, neighborhoods predominantly inhabited by minorities were deprived of investment, economic growth, and wealth accumulation. This created a cycle of limited opportunities and limited access to resources that persists today. Over time, this has led to a significant wealth gap between racial groups. Affirmative action seeks to address this imbalance by providing opportunities for marginalized individuals to overcome historical disadvantages and achieve upward mobility.
- bitcurious 3y ago
  “The proof is in the pudding” if we’re sticking with idioms. Where the evidence of systemic racism is a lack of wealth, discriminate on wealth. Where the evidence is family structure, discriminate on family structure. Address disadvantage by addressing disadvantage, not by a racial proxy. In programmer terms, racial affirmative action is a very lossy hash of reality, which leaves a lot of room for injustice both in terms of who it helps and who it doesn’t.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  > Redlining As an aside, I’ve always been confused about the dynamics of redlining. Wouldn’t refusing to give any mortgages for a neighborhood reduce the cost of buying a house there? Is the idea that it was purchased by landlords and everyone was made to rent instead of buying? Lowering housing costs for a group generally doesn’t seem like a bad thing…
- LorenPechtel 3y ago
  You're explaining why it came about, not why it's not an evil. As for redlining--while it certainly existed in the past I noticed something when there was a flap about it a while back. There was a very detailed article in the local newspaper about local "redlining". However, it didn't make sense--why would bankers only discriminate against black neighborhoods with low-down mortgages? If black is relevant why not all mortgages? How about a simpler explanation that fits the facts? Something stood out to me about their map--the map of the "redlined" zip codes exactly matched an earlier article about appreciation. Suppose the bankers are looking at the chance a house ends up underwater a few years down the road? That gives no inconvenient inconsistencies in their behavior. Yes, it hurt the neighborhood but there's no racism involved, just simple economics.

jupp0r 3y ago

The assumption that Germany has no historical baggage is pretty bold.

raxxorraxor 3y ago
Yes, but Germany currently also discriminates against formerly discriminated groups.