3 ms·

The court tends to rule narrowly. If no one takes the case to the Supreme Court then they won’t decide on it. I’m curious how this case would play out if some

The court tends to rule narrowly. If no one takes the case to the Supreme Court then they won’t decide on it. I’m curious how this case would play out if some males applying to CalTech did this against female applicants. That said I’m not sure how much gender based affirmitive action there is in science/engineering today.

sowbug 3y ago
Narrow rulings are central to the process. It's the difference between a "holding" and "dictum." A court can express an opinion about something, but if that opinion wasn't essential to resolve the case before the court, it's nothing more than an opinion, and later/lower courts can ignore that part. http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/legal-miscellaneous/difference-between-holding-and-dictum/ http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/legal-miscell...
gchallen 3y ago
> That said I’m not sure how much gender based affirmitive action there is in science/engineering today. Potentially quite a bit. Here's some recent data about admissions into the highly-competitive Illinois CS program: https://www.reddit.com/r/UIUC/comments/12kwc4a/uiuc_cs_admissions_demographics_data_since_2019/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UIUC/comments/12kwc4a/uiuc_cs_admis... Note that admissions rates for female applicants are higher across all categories—international, out-of-state, and in-state. Obviously you can't fully tell what's going on here without more of an understanding of the strengths of the different pools, but a 10–30% spread (for in-state) suggests that gender is being directly considered. IANAL, but I'm also concerned about the degree to which this decision affects the use of other factors during college admissions. Fundamentally admissions is a complex balance between prior performance and future potential, and only admitting based on prior performance means that we're stuck perpetuating existing societal inequities.
- kenjackson 3y ago
  I do know that 25 years ago or so there considerable weight given to gender in sciences and engineering. I do feel like all talk of it has disappeared, and wasn't sure if it was because it was no longer a factor or because race became the dominant talking point. From the data you present I suspect that there is weight still given to gender. I wonder how much energy there would be to investigating this? I wonder how many guys who get rejected from MIT CS will now do Tik Toks about how a girl took his spot, since he can no longer say it was a black kid?
  - peterfirefly 3y ago
    Harvey Mudd seems to discriminate heavily in favour of women.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
It's not a matter of ruling narrowly. Gender and sex based discrimination is already illegal in admissions.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Really? Gender-based discrimination is subject to intermediate scrutiny, not strict scrutiny (which is used for race). I thought it was well-known that some schools give boys a leg up because otherwise they would be 60/40 girls/boys. This article [1] indicates that state schools cannot discriminate, but private schools can. It's a decade old, but I can't think of any intervening laws/cases that would have changed this analysis (IAAL). 1: https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/affirmative-action-for-men-strange-silences-and-strange-bedfellows-in-the-public-debate-over-discrimination-against-women-in-college-admissions https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/affirmative-actio...
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I don't know how prevalent gender discrimination is in colleges. My understanding is that enrollment and admission numbers do in fact overwhelmingly admit women over men, at approximately a 60/40 ratio. The article you reference states that while some private institutions can be single gender, once they choose to admit both, they are legally prohibited from discriminating to maintain a 50-50 balance. It could be very well true that some or many institutions are violating the law, but I don't think that negates the point that I made about what the law is.
    - gnicholas 3y ago
      I posted hastily — it looks like schools can discriminate legally by disallowing a sex entirely, but not in gradations.

sowbug 3y ago

Narrow rulings are central to the process. It's the difference between a "holding" and "dictum." A court can express an opinion about something, but if that opinion wasn't essential to resolve the case before the court, it's nothing more than an opinion, and later/lower courts can ignore that part. http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/legal-miscellaneous/difference-between-holding-and-dictum/ http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/legal-miscell...

gchallen 3y ago

> That said I’m not sure how much gender based affirmitive action there is in science/engineering today. Potentially quite a bit. Here's some recent data about admissions into the highly-competitive Illinois CS program: https://www.reddit.com/r/UIUC/comments/12kwc4a/uiuc_cs_admissions_demographics_data_since_2019/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UIUC/comments/12kwc4a/uiuc_cs_admis... Note that admissions rates for female applicants are higher across all categories—international, out-of-state, and in-state. Obviously you can't fully tell what's going on here without more of an understanding of the strengths of the different pools, but a 10–30% spread (for in-state) suggests that gender is being directly considered. IANAL, but I'm also concerned about the degree to which this decision affects the use of other factors during college admissions. Fundamentally admissions is a complex balance between prior performance and future potential, and only admitting based on prior performance means that we're stuck perpetuating existing societal inequities.

kenjackson 3y ago
I do know that 25 years ago or so there considerable weight given to gender in sciences and engineering. I do feel like all talk of it has disappeared, and wasn't sure if it was because it was no longer a factor or because race became the dominant talking point. From the data you present I suspect that there is weight still given to gender. I wonder how much energy there would be to investigating this? I wonder how many guys who get rejected from MIT CS will now do Tik Toks about how a girl took his spot, since he can no longer say it was a black kid?
- peterfirefly 3y ago
  Harvey Mudd seems to discriminate heavily in favour of women.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

It's not a matter of ruling narrowly. Gender and sex based discrimination is already illegal in admissions.

gnicholas 3y ago
Really? Gender-based discrimination is subject to intermediate scrutiny, not strict scrutiny (which is used for race). I thought it was well-known that some schools give boys a leg up because otherwise they would be 60/40 girls/boys. This article [1] indicates that state schools cannot discriminate, but private schools can. It's a decade old, but I can't think of any intervening laws/cases that would have changed this analysis (IAAL). 1: https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/affirmative-action-for-men-strange-silences-and-strange-bedfellows-in-the-public-debate-over-discrimination-against-women-in-college-admissions https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/affirmative-actio...
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I don't know how prevalent gender discrimination is in colleges. My understanding is that enrollment and admission numbers do in fact overwhelmingly admit women over men, at approximately a 60/40 ratio. The article you reference states that while some private institutions can be single gender, once they choose to admit both, they are legally prohibited from discriminating to maintain a 50-50 balance. It could be very well true that some or many institutions are violating the law, but I don't think that negates the point that I made about what the law is.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    I posted hastily — it looks like schools can discriminate legally by disallowing a sex entirely, but not in gradations.