5 ms·

Admissions departments will find proxies for race. The next year of Harvard freshmen will not be majority Asian. The admissions department won’t allow that to h

Admissions departments will find proxies for race. The next year of Harvard freshmen will not be majority Asian. The admissions department won’t allow that to happen.

DeathArrow 3y ago
> Admissions departments will find proxies for race. And that would be the same thing. If someone can prove it, it's illegal.
- slibhb 3y ago
  If colleges stop considering standardized tests in order to keep the number of Asians down, is that illegal? Could courts force colleges to keep using the SAT?
  - local_crmdgeon 3y ago
    Yes to point one, no to point 2
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    Could courts force colleges to keep using the SAT? At least in California, courts forced colleges to stop using the SAT: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-09-01/uc-may-not-use-the-sat-or-act-for-admissions-scholarship-decisions-for-now-judge-rules https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-09-01/uc-may-n... (They were going to stop anyway, but this ruling sped things up.)
- onychomys 3y ago
  A proxy of zip code, maybe. That would be racially blind, a poor white kid in the midst of a poor black neighborhood would be just as likely to get in as their black neighbors would be.
- supportengineer 3y ago
  What if they required a GPA of less than 4.0?
- kllrnohj 3y ago
  From the SCOTUS opinion: > “Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise,” Roberts wrote. Sure seems like proxies for race are if anything explicitly called out as being OK by SCOTUS rather than illegal.
  - Levitz 3y ago
    Far from it, the point is that the lived experience of the individual matters, just not their race explicitly. The court recognizes the effects of race and recognizes them as valuable when considering a candidate, just not their race per se. If you allow me to be a bit cheeky, it values the content of their character over the color of their skin.
mchannon 3y ago
If true, an in-person English fluency and personality interviewing process, even a supposedly race-blind one, tends to skew heavily against a majority of, but not all, Asian college applicants. That’s probably what your theoretical proxy will look like, if you’re correct.
- sct202 3y ago
  This is something that actually got Harvard in trouble as alumni interviews rated Asians roughly similar to Whites, but the personality scores that the admissions offices gave Asians were lower even though they never met the candidates. "Alumni interviewers give Asian-Americans personal ratings comparable to those of whites. But the admissions office gives them the worst scores of any racial group, often without even meeting them, according to Professor Arcidiacono." https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollment-applicants.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollme...
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Sounds like the equally-ridiculous "cultural fit" part of company interviews. Even if candidates pass all the measurable, competence-based criteria for the job, companies have the cultural fit card to play against those candidates for whatever unsavory reason the company wants to exclude them.

Admissions departments will find proxies for race. The next year of Harvard freshmen will not be majority Asian. The admissions department won’t allow that to happen.

DeathArrow 3y ago

> Admissions departments will find proxies for race. And that would be the same thing. If someone can prove it, it's illegal.

slibhb 3y ago
If colleges stop considering standardized tests in order to keep the number of Asians down, is that illegal? Could courts force colleges to keep using the SAT?
- local_crmdgeon 3y ago
  Yes to point one, no to point 2
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  Could courts force colleges to keep using the SAT? At least in California, courts forced colleges to stop using the SAT: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-09-01/uc-may-not-use-the-sat-or-act-for-admissions-scholarship-decisions-for-now-judge-rules https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-09-01/uc-may-n... (They were going to stop anyway, but this ruling sped things up.)
onychomys 3y ago
A proxy of zip code, maybe. That would be racially blind, a poor white kid in the midst of a poor black neighborhood would be just as likely to get in as their black neighbors would be.
supportengineer 3y ago
What if they required a GPA of less than 4.0?
kllrnohj 3y ago
From the SCOTUS opinion: > “Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise,” Roberts wrote. Sure seems like proxies for race are if anything explicitly called out as being OK by SCOTUS rather than illegal.
- Levitz 3y ago
  Far from it, the point is that the lived experience of the individual matters, just not their race explicitly. The court recognizes the effects of race and recognizes them as valuable when considering a candidate, just not their race per se. If you allow me to be a bit cheeky, it values the content of their character over the color of their skin.

mchannon 3y ago

If true, an in-person English fluency and personality interviewing process, even a supposedly race-blind one, tends to skew heavily against a majority of, but not all, Asian college applicants. That’s probably what your theoretical proxy will look like, if you’re correct.

sct202 3y ago
This is something that actually got Harvard in trouble as alumni interviews rated Asians roughly similar to Whites, but the personality scores that the admissions offices gave Asians were lower even though they never met the candidates. "Alumni interviewers give Asian-Americans personal ratings comparable to those of whites. But the admissions office gives them the worst scores of any racial group, often without even meeting them, according to Professor Arcidiacono." https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollment-applicants.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollme...
ryandrake 3y ago
Sounds like the equally-ridiculous "cultural fit" part of company interviews. Even if candidates pass all the measurable, competence-based criteria for the job, companies have the cultural fit card to play against those candidates for whatever unsavory reason the company wants to exclude them.