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Neeva - cofounded by an ex-Google exec also provided a paid search experience with similar features. They have since shut down and in their blog post pointed ou

Neeva - cofounded by an ex-Google exec also provided a paid search experience with similar features. They have since shut down and in their blog post pointed out that the issue they faced was not convincing people that they should pay for search but rather the fact that distribution of their service is difficult (i.e. being browser defaults, at work, on people's phones). What's Kagi doing differently to be able to succeed?

sph 3y ago
They reach the top of HN front page. Because I've never heard of Neeva before, but I'm a Kagi paying user.
- comfypotato 3y ago
  It’s hot and new, but this is still a valid question. Neeva shows up, not Kagi, when you query Google about paid search engines.
- imiric 3y ago
  That's hardly a relevant criteria. HN consists of a niche audience of technical users already interested in startups and search technology. The real criteria is whether Kagi will be able to scale beyond a niche market, and establish a sustainable mainstream business. OP's question is valid, but it can't be answered by outsider speculation. Hopefully someone from Kagi is able to address it. This investment is a good sign, though. I'm rooting for them. We need more competition in this space, and a proper business not hijacked by advertisers is always a good thing.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    Why can't it be a sustainable niche business?
    - imiric 3y ago
      True, it could be. I'm just not sure it can survive as such when its main competitors are billion-dollar corporations. But maybe there's room for smaller search engines with alternative business models to compete with each other. marginalia.nu is another promising startup.
    - jiveturkey 3y ago
      because they raised a SAFE
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    You're forgetting that the "niche technical audience" has something marketers and influencers and other kinds of pushers don't: competence and credibility. And (not relevant here, but to plenty other products) control or influence over procurement process in SMBs, corporations, universities and government facilities. Nearly all of us in the "niche technical audience" are the personal IT support departments of some subset of our family, friends, and their friends. They come to us asking for advice, or to set their computers/phones up, or to fix them after they "caught viruses". However begrudgingly we do that, it puts us in a position of power - they listen to and trust in what we say, and accept uncritically what we do to their machines. And, our interests are mostly aligned with theirs - even if we don't care about particular friend-of-a-friend's happiness, we'll still do them good so they don't have to come back with more issues any time soon. This is how Google Chrome spread. This is how Firefox still survives. This is how several brands of anti-malware software spread - a mistake that's now difficult to undo. This is how AdBlock Plus became a thing, and how uBlock Origin is now replacing it. All these trends and more, I participated in first-hand. People still remember and follow advice I gave them over a decade ago (which isn't always good - see the anti-malware stuff). And so is the case with Kagi, to a degree. I'm paid user for 1.5 years now, happy with the service. I recommend it in relevant discussions, I mention it to people who spot it - but since it's a paid product, it is a tough sell with general population. Still, I try to spread the word, like I do with any other good and non-user-abusive tool. That said, this news makes me somewhat reluctant to recommend Kagi. I'll keep using it because it provides me immediate value for reasonable price, but taking investment often is a Faustian bargain. In this case it's not as clear as with regular VC backing, so I guess we'll see where this goes.
    - imiric 3y ago
      I think you're overestimating the impact technical users have on the survival of a business. Word of mouth and technical influence inside SMBs and corporations can only do so much, especially for a business that doesn't have a corporate sales strategy. > Nearly all of us in the "niche technical audience" are the personal IT support departments of some subset of our family, friends, and their friends. How has that influence worked out for you so far? By that logic, all our family and friend circles would be running Linux, using OSS, and be more mindful of their privacy. IME my attempts at convincing others to use the tools that I use has mostly been met with lukewarm response, or even arguments in favor of the tools that they already use. Convincing someone to change their computing habits is not just a matter of being considered an expert in the field. Google Chrome spread because it had the resources and influence of a billion-dollar corporation, and the marketing budget to reach millions of users. Firefox is barely surviving, and most of it is due to its corporate contracts, not because of its technical audience.
  - sumedh 3y ago
    > HN consists of a niche audience of technical users already interested in startups and search technology. Isnt that how firefox got popular, techies started to use it and then convinced others to switch. Of Course in the end it was no match against Google marketing for Chrome.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    > The real criteria is whether Kagi will be able to scale beyond a niche market, and establish a sustainable mainstream business. Why? Even if they never get close to being as popular as Google, they can still have millions of paying users.
- detourdog 3y ago
  Kagi is not convenient in the sense of browser search engine awareness. They do plug-in type thing. Needs work from the browsers for better integration.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    They've made their own browser for MacOS and iOS, so at least they've threaded that path.
- nine_k 3y ago
  So did Neeva. This is how I got on their waitlist. Did not have enough time to actually use them though.
qassiov 3y ago
I didn't realise Neeva had shut down. I tried it for about a week, but stopped using it because it wasn't as snappy as Google. In fact, I always seem to return to Google from every other search engine I try because of its snappiness — decades of tuning seems to have paid off.
- drcongo 3y ago
  I find Kagi snappier than Google. Plus the results you want are actually on the first page.
- babypuncher 3y ago
  Kagi is the first alternative search engine that I actually use regularly instead of Google. I used DDG for years, but more than half my queries ended up being prepended with !g because their results just weren't very good. With Kagi, I fall back on Google maybe once a month, and usually Google doesn't end up finding anything better.
leokennis 3y ago
At least for iOS/Mac but 99.999% sure for other browsers as well, they could write an extension that rewrites "https://www.google.com/search?q=some%20search https://www.google.com/search?q=some%20search" into their own search url right? Then keep Google as default search engine. Installing an extension sounds like a hurdle people paying for search are willing and able to jump over.
- remedan 3y ago
  Kagi already has a browser extension that does one thing only--switches your default search engine to Kagi.
- tokamak-teapot 3y ago
  They do have a Safari extension on iOS, which directs searches to kagi.com
  - ziftface 3y ago
    I love kagi but I hate this. It's not their fault, it's just a limitation of the os but it's such a hassle when you have to solve a Google captcha to get kagi results. I'm considering just removing that from my phone and switching back to Google there.
    - tokamak-teapot 3y ago
      What makes you get a Google captcha? My default search is set to DDG. Perhaps that’s why I don’t get one?
    - pzmarzly 3y ago
      You can switch default search engine to DDG or Ecosia, Kagi extension will still redirect you away. Or use extensions like xSearch or xEngine, they seem to be better at redirecting
      - nunez 3y ago
        That's exactly what I do. I feed searches to Ecosia and the Kagi extension handles the rewrite. Works well on Mac and iOS. I only use Google explicitly with the !g operator (which I use sparingly, and often get the same results or slightly worse) or for Google Images (which are better for now)
drcongo 3y ago
I tried Neeva and immediately hated it - it felt slow and clunky. I tried Kagi and immediately loved it enough that I've been paying ever since they let me. I think the big thing that Kagi is doing differently to Neeva is just being good.
- detourdog 3y ago
  My first Kagi search was so rich with results it was a throwback to a different era.
  - drcongo 3y ago
    I know right! I can't remember the last time I had to click through to the second page of Kagi unless my search was a futile one in the first place (ie: I hadn't understood the problem enough to know what to search for)
dns_snek 3y ago
> What's Kagi doing differently to be able to succeed? Define success? It outperforms every other search engine in terms of quality of results and at least from what I understand, they're not too far off from breaking even on their salaries. Neeva was a VC funded abomination and it showed, they even had deals with "big brand" companies like LastPass to offer bundles, but their core product sucked. Neeva search results were often worse than Google. That's not the case with Kagi.
- YetAnotherNick 3y ago
  > Define success? Its not hard to define success. It means having more revenue than their cost, and paying all employees market rate salary(including the founder himself).
  - rondini 3y ago
    If that's your view of success then many of the web's biggest services aren't successful
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      Unfortunately, it's a common bar for the continued existence of companies. I'd say successes if the company still offers a service in 5 or 10 years. Unless the operators an employees are all independently wealthy, you need to break even
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    > Its not hard to define success. Everyone has their own definition of success. For many, a "successful" tech startup is one that eventually lands a $100M+ buyout, or gets millions of paying customers, or some other metric that's far beyond "simply" arriving at a sustainable business that you (and I) mentioned.
rendaw 3y ago
Maybe it's because they were funded too much and then had unrealistic growth goals, and were then pressured into selling?
escape-big-tech 3y ago
Neeva did only one thing right: they cared about privacy, but otherwise they really did not do a good job. Their search results were worse than google, their load times were even slower than google, they tried making too much money too quickly, and they jumped towards fads too quickly.
drunkan 3y ago
They have their own browser, the Orion browser, to funnel people onto their search engine. Their search engine is also better than google for me for most use cases already, it has a clean and smart design with well thought out features that add value. I hate that Orion is not cross platform and limited to apple ecosystem. With that said it is native and my default choice for macOS and iOS. No telemetry, ad blocker built in, performant and supports extensions from chrome and firefox - on iOS too. Hands down the best native tree style tabs of any browser on the market on top of that and easy tab syncing. It’s still in development but it’s stable enough for me to be my main browser. These two products show some serious technical ability from a small team. I bet on companies who invest in and show technical ability over those with VC money, big names focused on marketing and growth.
- dharmab 3y ago
  I'm using Orion as my iOS browser and in the past few months I've not had to reach for Safari. Looking forward to a Linux and Windows release.
dharmab 3y ago
On my work PC I use Kagi via the session link feature.

sph 3y ago

They reach the top of HN front page. Because I've never heard of Neeva before, but I'm a Kagi paying user.

comfypotato 3y ago
It’s hot and new, but this is still a valid question. Neeva shows up, not Kagi, when you query Google about paid search engines.
imiric 3y ago
That's hardly a relevant criteria. HN consists of a niche audience of technical users already interested in startups and search technology. The real criteria is whether Kagi will be able to scale beyond a niche market, and establish a sustainable mainstream business. OP's question is valid, but it can't be answered by outsider speculation. Hopefully someone from Kagi is able to address it. This investment is a good sign, though. I'm rooting for them. We need more competition in this space, and a proper business not hijacked by advertisers is always a good thing.
- int_19h 3y ago
  Why can't it be a sustainable niche business?
  - imiric 3y ago
    True, it could be. I'm just not sure it can survive as such when its main competitors are billion-dollar corporations. But maybe there's room for smaller search engines with alternative business models to compete with each other. marginalia.nu is another promising startup.
  - jiveturkey 3y ago
    because they raised a SAFE
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  You're forgetting that the "niche technical audience" has something marketers and influencers and other kinds of pushers don't: competence and credibility. And (not relevant here, but to plenty other products) control or influence over procurement process in SMBs, corporations, universities and government facilities. Nearly all of us in the "niche technical audience" are the personal IT support departments of some subset of our family, friends, and their friends. They come to us asking for advice, or to set their computers/phones up, or to fix them after they "caught viruses". However begrudgingly we do that, it puts us in a position of power - they listen to and trust in what we say, and accept uncritically what we do to their machines. And, our interests are mostly aligned with theirs - even if we don't care about particular friend-of-a-friend's happiness, we'll still do them good so they don't have to come back with more issues any time soon. This is how Google Chrome spread. This is how Firefox still survives. This is how several brands of anti-malware software spread - a mistake that's now difficult to undo. This is how AdBlock Plus became a thing, and how uBlock Origin is now replacing it. All these trends and more, I participated in first-hand. People still remember and follow advice I gave them over a decade ago (which isn't always good - see the anti-malware stuff). And so is the case with Kagi, to a degree. I'm paid user for 1.5 years now, happy with the service. I recommend it in relevant discussions, I mention it to people who spot it - but since it's a paid product, it is a tough sell with general population. Still, I try to spread the word, like I do with any other good and non-user-abusive tool. That said, this news makes me somewhat reluctant to recommend Kagi. I'll keep using it because it provides me immediate value for reasonable price, but taking investment often is a Faustian bargain. In this case it's not as clear as with regular VC backing, so I guess we'll see where this goes.
  - imiric 3y ago
    I think you're overestimating the impact technical users have on the survival of a business. Word of mouth and technical influence inside SMBs and corporations can only do so much, especially for a business that doesn't have a corporate sales strategy. > Nearly all of us in the "niche technical audience" are the personal IT support departments of some subset of our family, friends, and their friends. How has that influence worked out for you so far? By that logic, all our family and friend circles would be running Linux, using OSS, and be more mindful of their privacy. IME my attempts at convincing others to use the tools that I use has mostly been met with lukewarm response, or even arguments in favor of the tools that they already use. Convincing someone to change their computing habits is not just a matter of being considered an expert in the field. Google Chrome spread because it had the resources and influence of a billion-dollar corporation, and the marketing budget to reach millions of users. Firefox is barely surviving, and most of it is due to its corporate contracts, not because of its technical audience.
- sumedh 3y ago
  > HN consists of a niche audience of technical users already interested in startups and search technology. Isnt that how firefox got popular, techies started to use it and then convinced others to switch. Of Course in the end it was no match against Google marketing for Chrome.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  > The real criteria is whether Kagi will be able to scale beyond a niche market, and establish a sustainable mainstream business. Why? Even if they never get close to being as popular as Google, they can still have millions of paying users.
detourdog 3y ago
Kagi is not convenient in the sense of browser search engine awareness. They do plug-in type thing. Needs work from the browsers for better integration.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  They've made their own browser for MacOS and iOS, so at least they've threaded that path.
nine_k 3y ago
So did Neeva. This is how I got on their waitlist. Did not have enough time to actually use them though.

qassiov 3y ago

I didn't realise Neeva had shut down. I tried it for about a week, but stopped using it because it wasn't as snappy as Google. In fact, I always seem to return to Google from every other search engine I try because of its snappiness — decades of tuning seems to have paid off.

drcongo 3y ago
I find Kagi snappier than Google. Plus the results you want are actually on the first page.
babypuncher 3y ago
Kagi is the first alternative search engine that I actually use regularly instead of Google. I used DDG for years, but more than half my queries ended up being prepended with !g because their results just weren't very good. With Kagi, I fall back on Google maybe once a month, and usually Google doesn't end up finding anything better.

leokennis 3y ago

At least for iOS/Mac but 99.999% sure for other browsers as well, they could write an extension that rewrites "https://www.google.com/search?q=some%20search https://www.google.com/search?q=some%20search" into their own search url right? Then keep Google as default search engine. Installing an extension sounds like a hurdle people paying for search are willing and able to jump over.

remedan 3y ago
Kagi already has a browser extension that does one thing only--switches your default search engine to Kagi.
tokamak-teapot 3y ago
They do have a Safari extension on iOS, which directs searches to kagi.com
- ziftface 3y ago
  I love kagi but I hate this. It's not their fault, it's just a limitation of the os but it's such a hassle when you have to solve a Google captcha to get kagi results. I'm considering just removing that from my phone and switching back to Google there.
  - tokamak-teapot 3y ago
    What makes you get a Google captcha? My default search is set to DDG. Perhaps that’s why I don’t get one?
  - pzmarzly 3y ago
    You can switch default search engine to DDG or Ecosia, Kagi extension will still redirect you away. Or use extensions like xSearch or xEngine, they seem to be better at redirecting
    - nunez 3y ago
      That's exactly what I do. I feed searches to Ecosia and the Kagi extension handles the rewrite. Works well on Mac and iOS. I only use Google explicitly with the !g operator (which I use sparingly, and often get the same results or slightly worse) or for Google Images (which are better for now)

drcongo 3y ago

I tried Neeva and immediately hated it - it felt slow and clunky. I tried Kagi and immediately loved it enough that I've been paying ever since they let me. I think the big thing that Kagi is doing differently to Neeva is just being good.

detourdog 3y ago
My first Kagi search was so rich with results it was a throwback to a different era.
- drcongo 3y ago
  I know right! I can't remember the last time I had to click through to the second page of Kagi unless my search was a futile one in the first place (ie: I hadn't understood the problem enough to know what to search for)

dns_snek 3y ago

> What's Kagi doing differently to be able to succeed? Define success? It outperforms every other search engine in terms of quality of results and at least from what I understand, they're not too far off from breaking even on their salaries. Neeva was a VC funded abomination and it showed, they even had deals with "big brand" companies like LastPass to offer bundles, but their core product sucked. Neeva search results were often worse than Google. That's not the case with Kagi.

YetAnotherNick 3y ago
> Define success? Its not hard to define success. It means having more revenue than their cost, and paying all employees market rate salary(including the founder himself).
- rondini 3y ago
  If that's your view of success then many of the web's biggest services aren't successful
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Unfortunately, it's a common bar for the continued existence of companies. I'd say successes if the company still offers a service in 5 or 10 years. Unless the operators an employees are all independently wealthy, you need to break even
- dns_snek 3y ago
  > Its not hard to define success. Everyone has their own definition of success. For many, a "successful" tech startup is one that eventually lands a $100M+ buyout, or gets millions of paying customers, or some other metric that's far beyond "simply" arriving at a sustainable business that you (and I) mentioned.

rendaw 3y ago

Maybe it's because they were funded too much and then had unrealistic growth goals, and were then pressured into selling?

escape-big-tech 3y ago

Neeva did only one thing right: they cared about privacy, but otherwise they really did not do a good job. Their search results were worse than google, their load times were even slower than google, they tried making too much money too quickly, and they jumped towards fads too quickly.

drunkan 3y ago

They have their own browser, the Orion browser, to funnel people onto their search engine. Their search engine is also better than google for me for most use cases already, it has a clean and smart design with well thought out features that add value. I hate that Orion is not cross platform and limited to apple ecosystem. With that said it is native and my default choice for macOS and iOS. No telemetry, ad blocker built in, performant and supports extensions from chrome and firefox - on iOS too. Hands down the best native tree style tabs of any browser on the market on top of that and easy tab syncing. It’s still in development but it’s stable enough for me to be my main browser. These two products show some serious technical ability from a small team. I bet on companies who invest in and show technical ability over those with VC money, big names focused on marketing and growth.

dharmab 3y ago
I'm using Orion as my iOS browser and in the past few months I've not had to reach for Safari. Looking forward to a Linux and Windows release.

dharmab 3y ago

On my work PC I use Kagi via the session link feature.