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Pinephone has multiple compatible os-s, while most android phones don't have alternatives and become unusable if android drops support for them. Also, Google an

Pinephone has multiple compatible os-s, while most android phones don't have alternatives and become unusable if android drops support for them. Also, Google and the big OEM-s have the incentive to break compatibility to provide you with the newest gadget, which is not true for the pines. yet.

charcircuit 3y ago
Plenty of android phones have alternatives. It's what custom roms in the title of this article is referring to.
- jraph 3y ago
  But these custom ROMs are hard to maintain especially as soon as when the phone manufacturer drops support. There's no way to get the latest AOSP on these devices forever. Hard work is required to port any new version and that's not always possible because AOSP comes to rely on newer kernel versions but you are stuck with the heavily customized one (+ the blobs) the manufacturer provided.
  - palata 3y ago
    Ever tried LineageOS, /e/OS, GrapheneOS or CalyxOS? Of course you need to choose a supported phone, but these days there are plenty. And those alternative ROMs are getting really, really good. I have been running /e/OS for two years and I can't tell you a single thing I cannot do because of that (maybe a banking app started crashing once, and after I updated it, it was fine?). The biggest thing really is that instead of Google Maps, I use one of the awesome OSM apps (Organic Maps and OSMAnd, in my case). And maybe it takes a little bit longer to get a GPS fix (I'm talking a couple of minutes, sometimes).
    - jraph 3y ago
      Yes, I have. I know all this. I also know that the phone I was using back then is discontinued from what I can read from the LineageOS website. Which should not happen for a 7 years old device. And in any case, I strongly believe I should not have to use proprietary drivers. > And maybe it takes a little bit longer to get a GPS fix (I'm talking a couple of minutes, sometimes). That's probably related to A-GPS. The modem should be able to receive A-GPS data from the phone. It might even be able to fetch this data by itself. Have you tried microG? I had no such issues when I was using an Android phone with Lineage / microG.
      - palata 3y ago
        > That's probably related to A-GPS. Yes that's what I think, too. I use microG, and it's using the "Mozilla Location Service" (which could use some love, maybe?). Also it's not bad, just a bit slower than Google phones (but Google is really good at tracking, so I expect their A-GPS to have better data, I suppose) :-).
        jraph 3y ago
        I would export A-GPS [1] data to be the same for everyone. It's just orbital data about the satellites that the GPS satellites also send you, but at a speed of 50 bit/s and you have to wait for the satellite to start broadcast it. As a consequence, it would take about 10 mins to have a fix, while it is instantaneous when the data is already there because it was downloaded beforehand. This data is typically provided by Qualcomm for phones based on their chips, but I guess this data is provided by many other companies. This is how you would typically do it on a phone running mobile Linux / ModemManager: wget -N http://xtrapath2.izatcloud.net/xtra3gr.bin sudo mmcli -m any --location-inject-assistance-data=xtra3gr.bin And I do get an instant GPS fix on the PinePhone Pro with this. I don't know how it works on Android, I didn't know how this stuff worked back then, I would expect something in the OS to fetch and inject A-GPS data on a regular schedule but that might be something to look into on your side. Some devices are just worse than others when it comes to get a GPS fix, regardless the OS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS
        palata 3y ago
        Oh, I thought it relied on stuff like WiFi/Cell-based localization. Now I wonder if something is wrong with my software, or if the Fairphone 3+ is just slow at getting a GPS fix :)
        jraph 3y ago
        Not for the GPS fix. Now, location is done both with GPS and with WiFi/Cell indeed.
palata 3y ago
Wow... people, can you please just read a bit about AOSP before dropping such complaints? There is no "Android drops support for them". It's "Google drops support for them". Google maintains AOSP, but if they stopped doing that, probably AOSP would survive in some form. Also I am not convinced that companies like Samsung would be happy to go with a completely proprietary Google OS, so chances are that they would get more involved into AOSP. Pinephone has nothing to do with the OS, it is a smartphone. You can install Linux mobile distros (like PostmarketOS) on many mainstream phones (like Samsung, etc), and you can install Android on your Pinephone. That is completely orthogonal.
- jraph 3y ago
  Not really. To run Linux mobile distros on regular Android phones, you need to have an Android base because essential features of these phones are implemented in closed source user space drivers that expect an Android system. You are basically stuck with the kernel your phone came with, plus some of its user space. That's what libhybris is for. In practice, development of this is slow as far as I know, and you need someone to port your specific device to it so you can run linux distros on it. But distros maintainers are more or less focusing on the Pinephone and the Librem 5 now that devices not requiring such blobs. As for running Android on the PinePhone, that's technically possible but in practice not much works AFAIK because people are focusing on the Linux mobile ecosystem instead. > There is no "Android drops support for them". It's "Google drops support for them". In which ways the distinction is useful? In any case, when your Android phone manufacturer drops support for your device, you are pretty much stuck on your heavily customized Linux kernel and your closed-source userspace drivers that expect this old kernel and its specific patches. They also expect the specific version of Android the phone comes with because Android may change APIs and drop features they are relying on. Porting to newer Android versions is not always impossible, but it's hard work. The PinePhone I boot in 2020 runs the latest mainline kernel, which is the whole point of this kind of device. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libhybris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libhybris
  - palata 3y ago
    Sorry, I am not completely sure I understand the point you are trying to make. Yes, devices that work with the mainline kernel are better supported. Both for Android and for Mobile Linux. > In which ways the distinction is useful? Because people not making the distinction tend to conclude "you should move to a Mobile Linux instead". Which is completely wrong: while there are active Mobile Linux projects, there are active AOSP-based projects. Android, today, is completely functional without Google (I have been running a de-Googled ROM for 2 years). I played a lot with PostmarketOS, and while it is very cool, it is still very, very far from Android. Even more so if you don't run waydroid and hope for people to write good mobile apps with some kind of C++ cross-platform framework like Qt.

charcircuit 3y ago

Plenty of android phones have alternatives. It's what custom roms in the title of this article is referring to.

jraph 3y ago
But these custom ROMs are hard to maintain especially as soon as when the phone manufacturer drops support. There's no way to get the latest AOSP on these devices forever. Hard work is required to port any new version and that's not always possible because AOSP comes to rely on newer kernel versions but you are stuck with the heavily customized one (+ the blobs) the manufacturer provided.
- palata 3y ago
  Ever tried LineageOS, /e/OS, GrapheneOS or CalyxOS? Of course you need to choose a supported phone, but these days there are plenty. And those alternative ROMs are getting really, really good. I have been running /e/OS for two years and I can't tell you a single thing I cannot do because of that (maybe a banking app started crashing once, and after I updated it, it was fine?). The biggest thing really is that instead of Google Maps, I use one of the awesome OSM apps (Organic Maps and OSMAnd, in my case). And maybe it takes a little bit longer to get a GPS fix (I'm talking a couple of minutes, sometimes).
  - jraph 3y ago
    Yes, I have. I know all this. I also know that the phone I was using back then is discontinued from what I can read from the LineageOS website. Which should not happen for a 7 years old device. And in any case, I strongly believe I should not have to use proprietary drivers. > And maybe it takes a little bit longer to get a GPS fix (I'm talking a couple of minutes, sometimes). That's probably related to A-GPS. The modem should be able to receive A-GPS data from the phone. It might even be able to fetch this data by itself. Have you tried microG? I had no such issues when I was using an Android phone with Lineage / microG.
    - palata 3y ago
      > That's probably related to A-GPS. Yes that's what I think, too. I use microG, and it's using the "Mozilla Location Service" (which could use some love, maybe?). Also it's not bad, just a bit slower than Google phones (but Google is really good at tracking, so I expect their A-GPS to have better data, I suppose) :-).
      - jraph 3y ago
        I would export A-GPS [1] data to be the same for everyone. It's just orbital data about the satellites that the GPS satellites also send you, but at a speed of 50 bit/s and you have to wait for the satellite to start broadcast it. As a consequence, it would take about 10 mins to have a fix, while it is instantaneous when the data is already there because it was downloaded beforehand. This data is typically provided by Qualcomm for phones based on their chips, but I guess this data is provided by many other companies. This is how you would typically do it on a phone running mobile Linux / ModemManager: wget -N http://xtrapath2.izatcloud.net/xtra3gr.bin sudo mmcli -m any --location-inject-assistance-data=xtra3gr.bin And I do get an instant GPS fix on the PinePhone Pro with this. I don't know how it works on Android, I didn't know how this stuff worked back then, I would expect something in the OS to fetch and inject A-GPS data on a regular schedule but that might be something to look into on your side. Some devices are just worse than others when it comes to get a GPS fix, regardless the OS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS
        palata 3y ago
        Oh, I thought it relied on stuff like WiFi/Cell-based localization. Now I wonder if something is wrong with my software, or if the Fairphone 3+ is just slow at getting a GPS fix :)
        jraph 3y ago
        Not for the GPS fix. Now, location is done both with GPS and with WiFi/Cell indeed.

palata 3y ago

Wow... people, can you please just read a bit about AOSP before dropping such complaints? There is no "Android drops support for them". It's "Google drops support for them". Google maintains AOSP, but if they stopped doing that, probably AOSP would survive in some form. Also I am not convinced that companies like Samsung would be happy to go with a completely proprietary Google OS, so chances are that they would get more involved into AOSP. Pinephone has nothing to do with the OS, it is a smartphone. You can install Linux mobile distros (like PostmarketOS) on many mainstream phones (like Samsung, etc), and you can install Android on your Pinephone. That is completely orthogonal.

jraph 3y ago
Not really. To run Linux mobile distros on regular Android phones, you need to have an Android base because essential features of these phones are implemented in closed source user space drivers that expect an Android system. You are basically stuck with the kernel your phone came with, plus some of its user space. That's what libhybris is for. In practice, development of this is slow as far as I know, and you need someone to port your specific device to it so you can run linux distros on it. But distros maintainers are more or less focusing on the Pinephone and the Librem 5 now that devices not requiring such blobs. As for running Android on the PinePhone, that's technically possible but in practice not much works AFAIK because people are focusing on the Linux mobile ecosystem instead. > There is no "Android drops support for them". It's "Google drops support for them". In which ways the distinction is useful? In any case, when your Android phone manufacturer drops support for your device, you are pretty much stuck on your heavily customized Linux kernel and your closed-source userspace drivers that expect this old kernel and its specific patches. They also expect the specific version of Android the phone comes with because Android may change APIs and drop features they are relying on. Porting to newer Android versions is not always impossible, but it's hard work. The PinePhone I boot in 2020 runs the latest mainline kernel, which is the whole point of this kind of device. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libhybris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libhybris
- palata 3y ago
  Sorry, I am not completely sure I understand the point you are trying to make. Yes, devices that work with the mainline kernel are better supported. Both for Android and for Mobile Linux. > In which ways the distinction is useful? Because people not making the distinction tend to conclude "you should move to a Mobile Linux instead". Which is completely wrong: while there are active Mobile Linux projects, there are active AOSP-based projects. Android, today, is completely functional without Google (I have been running a de-Googled ROM for 2 years). I played a lot with PostmarketOS, and while it is very cool, it is still very, very far from Android. Even more so if you don't run waydroid and hope for people to write good mobile apps with some kind of C++ cross-platform framework like Qt.