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> [Brazil has] an insane education system, it's good but maybe too aggressive. Richard Feynman had a not-so-positive view of the Brazillian education system, w

• mamediz 3y ago
  I don't know about law exam, but Brazil has more undergraduate courses in law than all the rest of the world combined, naturally this comes with a lot of shit univesities and that means a lot of people with a law degree but don't work in the field.
  • matheusmoreira 3y ago
    You can add medical schools to that list. Plenty of shitty doctors being minted too. Unable to diagnose myocardial infarction levels of shitty. The government basically thinks "education good" and starts making lots of crappy schools as if it was going to magically turn the country into a super power. I've literally seen politicians citing how many schools they created as a talking point. The result is of course overqualified Uber drivers.
    • shapefrog 3y ago
      Beats over here where the government basically thinks "education bad" and starts making lots of schools crappy out of a realisation that anyone who can add two numbers together wont vote for them come election time. The result is of course a population that isnt qualified to do anything but sit at home watching propaganda on tv.
      • matheusmoreira 3y ago
        Everything you described is also happening here. I just avoided mentioning it so as to avoid derailing the thread into brazilian politics. Truth is the primary purpose of our schools is to be the main government indoctrination tool. I still remember the asinine "sociology" and "history" classes taught by a socialist feminist teacher. I was literally forced to agree with marxist nonsense in her tests or fail the class. It was so blatant as to be comical. This also shows up in our SAT equivalent as rules about "respecting human rights". They force you to pick the "correct" ideological answer. Wrote anything even remotely controversial in your essay? You're not making it into any university. Even if you do make it, they never stop. Imagine a question about proper terms for trangender people suddenly showing up in the middle of a mathematics test at university. I have videos of primary school teachers teaching children to sing worker's party songs. I wish I was making this up.
• leonidasv 3y ago
  I'm Brazilian, and I think I can add some context. I think OP's perspective is just survivor bias. Our public (state-owned) education system (pre-college) is doing very bad, scoring poorly on PISA[0] year after year. On the other hand, the public tertiary education system is very advanced, but getting into it is tough and supporting the academic environment is also difficult (we have very high dropout rates in most STEM courses). Most upper middle-class families also expect that their children will study at a public university, so they're forced to study hard to pass in the admission exam. Also, keep in mind that most Brazilians don't speak a second language and those who do, are generally from a more affluent background or from a poorer background but with a good academic track record that granted them a scholarship to a private institution in high school or earlier. So, those brilliant engineers he mentioned are probably some of those people: smart people that got into the top-notch of our education system (by either being gifted or because they just got used to studying for long hours because their parents demanded it). However, the inequality within the country is abysmal. For every talented, smart Brazilian engineer, there are hundreds of functional illiterates - a 2012 study estimated that 38% of our college students are functional illiterates[1]. A classic tale of South American inequality. PS: The government has admittance quotas in the public universities for students coming from poorer backgrounds (income, race or coming from public high schools). This helped shift the balance in those institutions, but since the admission is based on an exam[2], you can still expect those students to be above the average since there are always more students taking the test than there are available vacancies. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_St... [1] https://guiadoestudante.abril.com.br/universidades/pesquisa-revela-que-38-do-estudantes-no-ensino-superior-nao-sabem-ler-e-escrever-plenamente https://guiadoestudante.abril.com.br/universidades/pesquisa-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_exam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_exam
  • bilekas 3y ago
    Sorry I'm late replying to this but I think you raise actually a very valid point. I went and read the Feynman article and I have experienced this myself in the Irish education system. People tend to study only for the exam without understanding the problem. Survivor bias is certainly a factor here and thanks for pointing it out! As for the affluent people I'm sure that does play in also. The developer i advocated for however was extremely poor and came from the favelas. I only knew about this after and I realize for sure that is the exception but I think it furthers your point of survivor bias!
• outworlder 3y ago
  Half a century ago, indeed. The public education system is not very good, when it comes to schools(from elementary to high, to use US terms). However, from my experience with the US public school system in the Bay Area, I'd say that many public schools in Brazil outclass those in the US. The standard curriculum definitely seems better - I am constantly surprised by how many subjects US schools do not cover - at all. Of course, the standard deviation is horrendous, so there are public schools that can hardly be called schools. The best private schools in Brazil are amazing (more so for 'STEM') - although their workload is pretty heavy. Every single person that I've known that participated in international interchange programs and spent some time in the US had real issues catching up when they came back. Many advanced subjects in math, biology, chemistry (organic chemistry in general, specially naming) didn't seem to be covered at all. Since my 'high school' was quite some time ago, I had expected things today to be different. But just comparing my kid's textbook (and homework assignments) to what I had... it seems like a perpetual vacation in comparison, it's so easy. Public universities are free and there are excellent ones(but difficult to get in). Private universities can be more of a mixed bag. Since there's no real 'general education' at universities, almost all your time is focused on your 'major' (there's no 'minor', although in many cases you can use some of your credits for 'unrelated' classes). There's no real college/university distinction - in Brazil the distinction is not course length or type of degree, the distinction is that a 'law college' would offer law school degrees (bachelor's and up), while a university would have law, computer science, math, medicine, etc. While studying for my BSc in Computer Science, I've often compared and used materials from US universities when I needed more sources, but I've found in several instances that the material was lacking, and I had to actually look for graduate level and up. For as good as the education itself is (and %@#$!@ harsh!), what they do lack, and the reason they are underrepresented in many fields, is integration with the private sector and the outside world in general. There are some projects here and there, but you don't see anything close to, say, DARPA(in either scope or funding). Other than a few outliers, research output doesn't even compare to even relatively unknown US universities. There's great research being done and incredible brains, but not enough incentives or funding. The above holds for undergraduate programs. There are good graduate level and up, but those are less common. It's often the case that people will end up at US universities to further their education. Almost all my teachers did their doctorates in the US (and then came back to their cushy and decently well paid 'tenured' positions). When it comes to US universities, the whole mindset is very different – and, in my opinion, orders of magnitude better. I literally shed a tear at Berkeley just from hearing them talk about their university at their 'welcome day' or whatever it's called (and I wasn't even the one going to attend, it was a family member), just from learning what the university does to help students with their interests outside the university and with the community, plus that vibe that 'anything is possible'. I didn't have that. It was tests, grades, more tests, in a microcosm. You won't see many Bill Gates or Zuckerbergs that way, and specially not dropouts. I've tried to compare the bar exam before but, not only the tests are very different, the way they are graded is different, pass/fail stats vary wildly between US and Brazil depending on what year we are looking at. And, obviously, the legal system is different. Not sure if it's a fair comparison, when you consider all those variables. What I do know is that friends would study for a long time, sometimes for multiple years(often enrolling in extra, private courses just for that). It's said to be difficult, but I have no real experience or way to gauge.