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Sad to see a Brazilian company who offered so many jobs being forked out. They have unbelievable talent in Brazil. I've fought my manager to hire a good one f

Sad to see a Brazilian company who offered so many jobs being forked out. They have unbelievable talent in Brazil. I've fought my manager to hire a good one from Brazil. They have an unbelievable wealth of amazing education, add to that a strong reason to want to be successful. I've worked and hired a lot of people over the years, of all of them; Brazilians were the best, they know what they're doing, in our office at the time that let everyone to relax and enjoy. If you don't know what you're doing. You're fired. End of. Used to love that office. We got work done while having fun. Count the UN, more or less was there. Everything was delivered quick and mostly always above that spec, because they 'understood' it better. 10 / 10 End of the day : They have an insane education system, it's good but maybe too aggressive. (look to the law exam). They know how to study. Lookup the law exam. It's rough. Edit: If you're poor in Brazil, options are limited. Coding is an EXIT point, that can lead to better. Downvote please comment.

raverbashing 3y ago
> Lookup the law exam. It's rough. There's nothing too special about it, quite the contrary, you could say it's the "bare minimum"
talldatethrow 3y ago
I appreciate you saying Brazilians were the best of those youve worked with. Which nationality was the worst?
hayd 3y ago
Not a downvoter... this comment comes off quite nationalistic and, more importantly, is there evidence they are being "fork out"? My understanding, from conversations with business school leader in the UK, is that South America is where the expertise is in the cutting edge of finance. Assuming that visa are acquiring competition for $1b to kill it or on-shore the workforce seems an odd take.
ccooffee 3y ago
> [Brazil has] an insane education system, it's good but maybe too aggressive. Richard Feynman had a not-so-positive view of the Brazillian education system, which he summarized with "no science is being taught in Brazil!"[0]. Granted, his view was based on personal experience around half a century ago, so everything may have changed since then (possibly even due to Feynman's influence). > Lookup the law exam. It's rough. I'm having a hard time finding comprehensive resources here. I've found bits and pieces that make it seem...not that scary. 80 multiple choice questions where 40 correct is a pass, and then a few essays. A 2022 article[1] states that some prestigious law programs have bar passing rates near 80% while the average pass rate is closer to 30%. American states have per-state bar exams, with average pass rates in 2023 ranging from 31% (Alabama) to Alaska (75%) [2]. Is the difficulty of the exam not easily represented in statistics? [0] https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education [1] https://portal.fgv.br/en/news/20-years-revolution-brazilian-legal-education-fgv-students-have-highest-brazilian-bar https://portal.fgv.br/en/news/20-years-revolution-brazilian-... [2] https://www.ncbex.org/statistics-research/bar-exam-results-jurisdiction https://www.ncbex.org/statistics-research/bar-exam-results-j...
- mamediz 3y ago
  I don't know about law exam, but Brazil has more undergraduate courses in law than all the rest of the world combined, naturally this comes with a lot of shit univesities and that means a lot of people with a law degree but don't work in the field.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    You can add medical schools to that list. Plenty of shitty doctors being minted too. Unable to diagnose myocardial infarction levels of shitty. The government basically thinks "education good" and starts making lots of crappy schools as if it was going to magically turn the country into a super power. I've literally seen politicians citing how many schools they created as a talking point. The result is of course overqualified Uber drivers.
    - shapefrog 3y ago
      Beats over here where the government basically thinks "education bad" and starts making lots of schools crappy out of a realisation that anyone who can add two numbers together wont vote for them come election time. The result is of course a population that isnt qualified to do anything but sit at home watching propaganda on tv.
      - matheusmoreira 3y ago
        Everything you described is also happening here. I just avoided mentioning it so as to avoid derailing the thread into brazilian politics. Truth is the primary purpose of our schools is to be the main government indoctrination tool. I still remember the asinine "sociology" and "history" classes taught by a socialist feminist teacher. I was literally forced to agree with marxist nonsense in her tests or fail the class. It was so blatant as to be comical. This also shows up in our SAT equivalent as rules about "respecting human rights". They force you to pick the "correct" ideological answer. Wrote anything even remotely controversial in your essay? You're not making it into any university. Even if you do make it, they never stop. Imagine a question about proper terms for trangender people suddenly showing up in the middle of a mathematics test at university. I have videos of primary school teachers teaching children to sing worker's party songs. I wish I was making this up.
rngacct__ 3y ago
> They have an insane education system Hate to be a party-pooper, but as a Brazilian I can assure you that is not the case. The thing, is that Brazil has some unique factors at play that allow some people to insane levels of proficiency with tech. One of them is that tech is relatively cheap here. Sure, if you want the latest you will have to pay an arm and a leg. However we have some local brands that make some pretty affordable hardware. Positivo is one brand that comes to mind. They have a terrible reputation for selling crap (and the reputation is well deserved) but what they sell is good enough for to run a browser. Another important factor is that internet access is pretty cheap around here. I pay US$ 25 for a fiber connection with 600mb up/300mb down. And there are plenty of other options that are cheaper than that. And there is also the economic shitshow we are living in the last 15 years. When you combine all this you get an environment where people have to always keep working hard. Because if you don't, someone else will. And all companies are pretty happy to ditch you in favor of someone that works harder. And even with the social securities we have it absolutely impossible to live with basic dignity without a job. But I understand you sentiment. I've felt it when I was working for a company in Portugal. There most people simply didn't care. Especially when shit hits the fan. Some people would just logoff and go home: "tomorrow we'll deal with it". I was SHOCKED to see that, this is simply unacceptable in the tech sector here in Brazil. About the law exam, it's not really that hard. You have 4 years to prepare for that. And if you look for data in the good universities you'll the approval rate is pretty high. The problem is that a lot of places are pretty bad, and are basically just pretending to teach something useful. This way they can get your money, waste your time and shift the blame to you when you don't succeed in the exam.
andrecarini 3y ago
> Downvote please comment. I didn't vote on it but it comes off as a bit confusing to read and understand... > our office at the time that let everyone to relax and enjoy. If you don't know what you're doing. You're fired. End of. Used to love that office. I can't tell what office you're talking about but your description doesn't make it seem like a place where people relax and enjoy if you could be easily fired. > Count the UN, more or less was there. I have no idea what this means.
- squokko 3y ago
  > I can't tell what office you're talking about but your description doesn't make it seem like a place where people relax and enjoy if you could be easily fired. It could. Imagine anyone who couldn't run a 13 second 100 meter dash was fired, but they only hired people who ran it in 11 seconds in the interview. Nobody's really going to be too worried.
  - namaria 3y ago
    If only technical competence could be measured in a single dimensional, objective contest like running.
    - nashashmi 3y ago
      Technical competence is frequently Mismeasured in a single dimensional, objective contest.
    - laboratorymice 3y ago
      It can't be assessed by a single dimension, but it doesn't have to be. A high quality engineer absolutely can rank the technical competence of other engineers in his field (not just computer science) with a high degree of certainty, and that's all you need. The "it's complex" argument is similar to the "it's a tradeoff" argument in that both are easily abused to justify any bad decision.
user_named 3y ago
This is just offensive, saying that Brazilians are better than me or anyone from my continent.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
> They have an insane education system, it's good but maybe too aggressive Entire essays can and have been written about the problems of our education system. My favorite one was written by Feynman and it has already been cited in this thread. I'd like everyone here to know that it's stunningly accurate to this very day. I actually gave up programming as a career because the system and my peers demoralized me so much. Pursued an alternative career instead. I'll have you know that brazilians who speak english fluently are the elite, likely private school educated. That's the pool of candidates you're selecting from. Those are the brazilians you're likely to meet here on this site. > Lookup the law exam. It's rough. Not at all. It's the bare minimum and it wasn't even enough to prevent the job market from being literally flooded with lawyers. Had you cited concursos which roughly mean "contests for government jobs" you would have been right. Few job openings, tens of thousands of brazilians competing for them, infrequent tests. That's how judges are selected, for example. I know people who literally study for 10 hours every single day and who have yet to make it into one of these positions.
- a1o 3y ago
  Compare Unicamp or USP curriculum to any major US university if you have to, they will be pretty interesting. The Ivy league universities are a ridiculous small pool of all universities in US. I like Feynman but there's idiocy in assuming his observations from more than forty years ago as the whole truth for all graduation courses in the country. What US has in superior is the mentoring culture, the business people interwoven in the university culture (like the extra courses offered in Sloan with real companies!), the sharp focus on patent, other things. But technical knowledge in top Brazilian universities will compete or outclass technical knowledge in US. But there are many things important, supporting things, a whole infrastructure beyond the technical people required to advanced technology.
  - atdrummond 3y ago
    My experience has been that the ceiling is highest in the US but that the floor is significantly higher in a number of other countries. And I say this as someone who chose to leave a Top 10 US uni to do undergrad in the UK and grad in UK/Japan, so I’m not particularly inclined towards the US model.
diegoholiveira 3y ago
As a Brazilian, let me give you my opinion: Universities: are ok in general with a few ones really good, like USP, ITA, UFMG, Puc-RJ, UFRJ and others. It’s really hard to join those but if you’re able to do it, your education will be excellent. High school: public high schools are really bad, privates are ok. Basic school: same as high school. I study my entire life in public schools and when I started my CS degree, I discovered that I knew nothing about sciences and math.
marcos100 3y ago
Here you have selection bias. If you're a US company and you have to bring someone from outside the US, you'll probably bring the better ones and, as someone already said, if they are fluent in English, they are probably at the top. Come work for a Brazilian company to see the that we have mediocre people everywhere.

raverbashing 3y ago

> Lookup the law exam. It's rough. There's nothing too special about it, quite the contrary, you could say it's the "bare minimum"

talldatethrow 3y ago

I appreciate you saying Brazilians were the best of those youve worked with. Which nationality was the worst?

hayd 3y ago

Not a downvoter... this comment comes off quite nationalistic and, more importantly, is there evidence they are being "fork out"? My understanding, from conversations with business school leader in the UK, is that South America is where the expertise is in the cutting edge of finance. Assuming that visa are acquiring competition for $1b to kill it or on-shore the workforce seems an odd take.

ccooffee 3y ago

> [Brazil has] an insane education system, it's good but maybe too aggressive. Richard Feynman had a not-so-positive view of the Brazillian education system, which he summarized with "no science is being taught in Brazil!"[0]. Granted, his view was based on personal experience around half a century ago, so everything may have changed since then (possibly even due to Feynman's influence). > Lookup the law exam. It's rough. I'm having a hard time finding comprehensive resources here. I've found bits and pieces that make it seem...not that scary. 80 multiple choice questions where 40 correct is a pass, and then a few essays. A 2022 article[1] states that some prestigious law programs have bar passing rates near 80% while the average pass rate is closer to 30%. American states have per-state bar exams, with average pass rates in 2023 ranging from 31% (Alabama) to Alaska (75%) [2]. Is the difficulty of the exam not easily represented in statistics? [0] https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education [1] https://portal.fgv.br/en/news/20-years-revolution-brazilian-legal-education-fgv-students-have-highest-brazilian-bar https://portal.fgv.br/en/news/20-years-revolution-brazilian-... [2] https://www.ncbex.org/statistics-research/bar-exam-results-jurisdiction https://www.ncbex.org/statistics-research/bar-exam-results-j...

mamediz 3y ago
I don't know about law exam, but Brazil has more undergraduate courses in law than all the rest of the world combined, naturally this comes with a lot of shit univesities and that means a lot of people with a law degree but don't work in the field.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  You can add medical schools to that list. Plenty of shitty doctors being minted too. Unable to diagnose myocardial infarction levels of shitty. The government basically thinks "education good" and starts making lots of crappy schools as if it was going to magically turn the country into a super power. I've literally seen politicians citing how many schools they created as a talking point. The result is of course overqualified Uber drivers.
  - shapefrog 3y ago
    Beats over here where the government basically thinks "education bad" and starts making lots of schools crappy out of a realisation that anyone who can add two numbers together wont vote for them come election time. The result is of course a population that isnt qualified to do anything but sit at home watching propaganda on tv.
    - matheusmoreira 3y ago
      Everything you described is also happening here. I just avoided mentioning it so as to avoid derailing the thread into brazilian politics. Truth is the primary purpose of our schools is to be the main government indoctrination tool. I still remember the asinine "sociology" and "history" classes taught by a socialist feminist teacher. I was literally forced to agree with marxist nonsense in her tests or fail the class. It was so blatant as to be comical. This also shows up in our SAT equivalent as rules about "respecting human rights". They force you to pick the "correct" ideological answer. Wrote anything even remotely controversial in your essay? You're not making it into any university. Even if you do make it, they never stop. Imagine a question about proper terms for trangender people suddenly showing up in the middle of a mathematics test at university. I have videos of primary school teachers teaching children to sing worker's party songs. I wish I was making this up.

rngacct__ 3y ago

> They have an insane education system Hate to be a party-pooper, but as a Brazilian I can assure you that is not the case. The thing, is that Brazil has some unique factors at play that allow some people to insane levels of proficiency with tech. One of them is that tech is relatively cheap here. Sure, if you want the latest you will have to pay an arm and a leg. However we have some local brands that make some pretty affordable hardware. Positivo is one brand that comes to mind. They have a terrible reputation for selling crap (and the reputation is well deserved) but what they sell is good enough for to run a browser. Another important factor is that internet access is pretty cheap around here. I pay US$ 25 for a fiber connection with 600mb up/300mb down. And there are plenty of other options that are cheaper than that. And there is also the economic shitshow we are living in the last 15 years. When you combine all this you get an environment where people have to always keep working hard. Because if you don't, someone else will. And all companies are pretty happy to ditch you in favor of someone that works harder. And even with the social securities we have it absolutely impossible to live with basic dignity without a job. But I understand you sentiment. I've felt it when I was working for a company in Portugal. There most people simply didn't care. Especially when shit hits the fan. Some people would just logoff and go home: "tomorrow we'll deal with it". I was SHOCKED to see that, this is simply unacceptable in the tech sector here in Brazil. About the law exam, it's not really that hard. You have 4 years to prepare for that. And if you look for data in the good universities you'll the approval rate is pretty high. The problem is that a lot of places are pretty bad, and are basically just pretending to teach something useful. This way they can get your money, waste your time and shift the blame to you when you don't succeed in the exam.

andrecarini 3y ago

> Downvote please comment. I didn't vote on it but it comes off as a bit confusing to read and understand... > our office at the time that let everyone to relax and enjoy. If you don't know what you're doing. You're fired. End of. Used to love that office. I can't tell what office you're talking about but your description doesn't make it seem like a place where people relax and enjoy if you could be easily fired. > Count the UN, more or less was there. I have no idea what this means.

squokko 3y ago
> I can't tell what office you're talking about but your description doesn't make it seem like a place where people relax and enjoy if you could be easily fired. It could. Imagine anyone who couldn't run a 13 second 100 meter dash was fired, but they only hired people who ran it in 11 seconds in the interview. Nobody's really going to be too worried.
- namaria 3y ago
  If only technical competence could be measured in a single dimensional, objective contest like running.
  - nashashmi 3y ago
    Technical competence is frequently Mismeasured in a single dimensional, objective contest.
  - laboratorymice 3y ago
    It can't be assessed by a single dimension, but it doesn't have to be. A high quality engineer absolutely can rank the technical competence of other engineers in his field (not just computer science) with a high degree of certainty, and that's all you need. The "it's complex" argument is similar to the "it's a tradeoff" argument in that both are easily abused to justify any bad decision.

user_named 3y ago

This is just offensive, saying that Brazilians are better than me or anyone from my continent.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

> They have an insane education system, it's good but maybe too aggressive Entire essays can and have been written about the problems of our education system. My favorite one was written by Feynman and it has already been cited in this thread. I'd like everyone here to know that it's stunningly accurate to this very day. I actually gave up programming as a career because the system and my peers demoralized me so much. Pursued an alternative career instead. I'll have you know that brazilians who speak english fluently are the elite, likely private school educated. That's the pool of candidates you're selecting from. Those are the brazilians you're likely to meet here on this site. > Lookup the law exam. It's rough. Not at all. It's the bare minimum and it wasn't even enough to prevent the job market from being literally flooded with lawyers. Had you cited concursos which roughly mean "contests for government jobs" you would have been right. Few job openings, tens of thousands of brazilians competing for them, infrequent tests. That's how judges are selected, for example. I know people who literally study for 10 hours every single day and who have yet to make it into one of these positions.

a1o 3y ago
Compare Unicamp or USP curriculum to any major US university if you have to, they will be pretty interesting. The Ivy league universities are a ridiculous small pool of all universities in US. I like Feynman but there's idiocy in assuming his observations from more than forty years ago as the whole truth for all graduation courses in the country. What US has in superior is the mentoring culture, the business people interwoven in the university culture (like the extra courses offered in Sloan with real companies!), the sharp focus on patent, other things. But technical knowledge in top Brazilian universities will compete or outclass technical knowledge in US. But there are many things important, supporting things, a whole infrastructure beyond the technical people required to advanced technology.
- atdrummond 3y ago
  My experience has been that the ceiling is highest in the US but that the floor is significantly higher in a number of other countries. And I say this as someone who chose to leave a Top 10 US uni to do undergrad in the UK and grad in UK/Japan, so I’m not particularly inclined towards the US model.

diegoholiveira 3y ago

As a Brazilian, let me give you my opinion: Universities: are ok in general with a few ones really good, like USP, ITA, UFMG, Puc-RJ, UFRJ and others. It’s really hard to join those but if you’re able to do it, your education will be excellent. High school: public high schools are really bad, privates are ok. Basic school: same as high school. I study my entire life in public schools and when I started my CS degree, I discovered that I knew nothing about sciences and math.

marcos100 3y ago

Here you have selection bias. If you're a US company and you have to bring someone from outside the US, you'll probably bring the better ones and, as someone already said, if they are fluent in English, they are probably at the top. Come work for a Brazilian company to see the that we have mediocre people everywhere.