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One could argue that payment disputes are an artifact of credit cards. Before that there was no way to say "I don't like the product that I got, or it didn't ar

One could argue that payment disputes are an artifact of credit cards. Before that there was no way to say "I don't like the product that I got, or it didn't arrive in time, so I'm cancelling the order". Once money changed hands, it was a done deal.

aidenn0 3y ago
There were totally payment disputes with cash. It just might involve either lawyers or a heavy blunt object, or when less contentious a third party might even mediate. "You didn't give me what I paid for" and "You didn't pay me for what I gave you" are fundamental parts of any purchase.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> One could argue that payment disputes are an artifact of credit cards. One could, but one would look very silly doing so, since documented payment disputes (in court records, among other places) are much older than credit cards. > One could argue that payment disputes are an artifact of credit cards. Yes, there was. Contracts, including sales contracts, where payment was in whole or in part conditioned on delivery or other performance long predate credit cards, as do disputes over whether the good delivery or other performance was provided and whether payment must be made. As were, on the other hand, contracts where payment came first, and then later disputes over whether delivery or performance would occur and there would be disputes over whether payment made in advance must be refunded. And, even without payment and delivery being separated in time, you can have payment disputes because whether the goods (or the instruments provided as payment) were as specified may become a dispute after both sides have exchanged and tentatively concluded the trade. The idea that payment disputes didn’t exist before the fairly recent invention of credit cards is…amusing.
- dlisboa 3y ago
  Seems to me those are all legal recourses, which obviously always existed. But disputing a charge on my card means I don’t have to open a legal case against a company. The money is somewhat in escrow and it’s up to VISA/Mastercard to deal with the merchant. For a consumer that is huge.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Seems to me those are all legal recourses No, they are all payment disputes. The evidence in court records is from someone taking advantage of legal recourse for such disputes, yes. > But disputing a charge on my card means I don’t have to open a legal case against a company. The money is somewhat in escrow and it’s up to VISA/Mastercard to deal with the merchant. Having a third-party middle-man handling some subset of payment disputes in the first instance before recourse to the legal system also doesn’t originate with credit cards; even the language you use to describe it references the older and more general concept of escrow. And, of course, as a consumer on credit even before credit cards, and without an intermediary, you neither had to open a legal case against the seller or contact a third party in most cases for a payment dispute, you simply withheld payment. It was the seller who had to initiate a legal case against a purchaser on credit in the event of a payment dispute, and that largely remains unchanged.

aidenn0 3y ago

There were totally payment disputes with cash. It just might involve either lawyers or a heavy blunt object, or when less contentious a third party might even mediate. "You didn't give me what I paid for" and "You didn't pay me for what I gave you" are fundamental parts of any purchase.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> One could argue that payment disputes are an artifact of credit cards. One could, but one would look very silly doing so, since documented payment disputes (in court records, among other places) are much older than credit cards. > One could argue that payment disputes are an artifact of credit cards. Yes, there was. Contracts, including sales contracts, where payment was in whole or in part conditioned on delivery or other performance long predate credit cards, as do disputes over whether the good delivery or other performance was provided and whether payment must be made. As were, on the other hand, contracts where payment came first, and then later disputes over whether delivery or performance would occur and there would be disputes over whether payment made in advance must be refunded. And, even without payment and delivery being separated in time, you can have payment disputes because whether the goods (or the instruments provided as payment) were as specified may become a dispute after both sides have exchanged and tentatively concluded the trade. The idea that payment disputes didn’t exist before the fairly recent invention of credit cards is…amusing.

dlisboa 3y ago
Seems to me those are all legal recourses, which obviously always existed. But disputing a charge on my card means I don’t have to open a legal case against a company. The money is somewhat in escrow and it’s up to VISA/Mastercard to deal with the merchant. For a consumer that is huge.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Seems to me those are all legal recourses No, they are all payment disputes. The evidence in court records is from someone taking advantage of legal recourse for such disputes, yes. > But disputing a charge on my card means I don’t have to open a legal case against a company. The money is somewhat in escrow and it’s up to VISA/Mastercard to deal with the merchant. Having a third-party middle-man handling some subset of payment disputes in the first instance before recourse to the legal system also doesn’t originate with credit cards; even the language you use to describe it references the older and more general concept of escrow. And, of course, as a consumer on credit even before credit cards, and without an intermediary, you neither had to open a legal case against the seller or contact a third party in most cases for a payment dispute, you simply withheld payment. It was the seller who had to initiate a legal case against a purchaser on credit in the event of a payment dispute, and that largely remains unchanged.