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Also they are ending support for unmerged-usr (/usr/bin and /bin as different directories). On one hand, here's Redhat (and Pottering) using their position as d

by aftbit 3y ago

Also they are ending support for unmerged-usr (/usr/bin and /bin as different directories). On one hand, here's Redhat (and Pottering) using their position as dominate service manager to bully distros and software into adopting their views of the world. On the other hand, systemd has been a great step away from fragmentation in distro-land.

henearkr 3y ago
> step away from fragmentation Not really, it has increased the number of people using alternative init systems like OpenRC, Runit, S6, etc. Before SystemD, SysV was even more mainstream than SystemD is today.
- freedomben 3y ago
  That does not match my memory. I remember it being very split between Upstart and SysV. Now the major distros have pretty much all standardized on systemd.
  - henearkr 3y ago
    But Gentoo switched to OpenRC, Debian forked to Devuan, Arch forked to Artix: all these main distros were using SysV and now a part of their users are using an alternative system.
    - anonbanker 3y ago
      still using init scripts on OpenRC.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      What's the market share of those though? I've networked with a lot of devops/sysadmins and I can't to my recollection ever remember somebody using Devuan or Artix, and it's rare indeed to hear somebody using Gentoo. I'm not dismissing them because they aren't popular, but I do think it's not very reasonable to call the market fragmented when the nons are such a small percentage of overall use.
      - nerdponx 3y ago
        Who is ever going to run Arch on a server anyway? I've used Obarun a bit in a VM and enjoyed using 66 Suite. I wouldn't use it at work (again mostly because it's Arch and we use Docker for everything anyway so no need for init), but I would consider using it on a home project server.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      Yeah ain't nobody using those.
      - henearkr 3y ago
        GNU/Linux is a nebula of many blocks that sometimes compete for the same role, but heavily rely on intercompatibility and adapter layers in order to allow users to choose the one they prefer in each spot (I know this has been less the case with Gnome recently, for example, but the ideal would be to stick to the principle). Even though the SysV shim layer can be maintained outside of RedHat, their decision is still a spoke in our wheels.
        ilyt 3y ago
        Right but the decision has been made and ones that didn't go with systemd are probably fraction of a percent by installation count. Doesn't make sense to keep the cruft, especially that the alternative (writing unit to some app not delivering one) is like 5-10 lines of text and 5 minutes of work.
  - Macha 3y ago
    Nor even was sysvinit always set up consistently, e.g. some distros just had init.d and rc.d, some had all the runlevels, and what those runlevels meant were different distro to distro
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Now the major distros have pretty much all standardized on systemd. Which is why I need to stop using Linux.
candiddevmike 3y ago
The cool thing about Linux is you can start your own distro where like minded people can contribute.
tyg13 3y ago
Are there any major distros (or even minor distros) that haven't committed to the /usr/-merge at this point? I know Debian has been having issues, but for the most part that decision has been made.
- Arnavion 3y ago
  Debian has merged /usr too. At least my current Debian 12 install does, and I'm pretty sure it had it before I upgraded it from Debian 11. I believe Debian's problem is (was?) only with migrating existing pre-merge installs.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    Works fine. Debian 12: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 04-28 23:21 bin -> usr/bin lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 04-28 23:21 lib -> usr/lib lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 8 04-28 23:21 sbin -> usr/sbin that on install that was installed somewhere in 2007 then just dist-upgraded for 16 years.
  - seba_dos1 3y ago
    The only "problem" Debian had was that dpkg maintainer had differing opinions on how the merge should have been done and used dpkg as a vessel to express those opinions. Merged /usr was already available in stretch, is the default since buster, and support for non-merged /usr has been dropped in bookworm (all non-merged systems are converted on upgrade now).
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  Debian didn't really have any issues with it either, merged /usr is the default since two stable versions ago already. There were just some troubles with internal politics around the topic.
josephcsible 3y ago
> On the other hand, systemd has been a great step away from fragmentation in distro-land. Why are you making it sound like a monoculture is a good thing?
- nerdponx 3y ago
  There's plenty of room between severe fragmentation and total monoculture.

by aftbit 3y ago

henearkr 3y ago

> step away from fragmentation Not really, it has increased the number of people using alternative init systems like OpenRC, Runit, S6, etc. Before SystemD, SysV was even more mainstream than SystemD is today.

freedomben 3y ago
That does not match my memory. I remember it being very split between Upstart and SysV. Now the major distros have pretty much all standardized on systemd.
- henearkr 3y ago
  But Gentoo switched to OpenRC, Debian forked to Devuan, Arch forked to Artix: all these main distros were using SysV and now a part of their users are using an alternative system.
  - anonbanker 3y ago
    still using init scripts on OpenRC.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    What's the market share of those though? I've networked with a lot of devops/sysadmins and I can't to my recollection ever remember somebody using Devuan or Artix, and it's rare indeed to hear somebody using Gentoo. I'm not dismissing them because they aren't popular, but I do think it's not very reasonable to call the market fragmented when the nons are such a small percentage of overall use.
    - nerdponx 3y ago
      Who is ever going to run Arch on a server anyway? I've used Obarun a bit in a VM and enjoyed using 66 Suite. I wouldn't use it at work (again mostly because it's Arch and we use Docker for everything anyway so no need for init), but I would consider using it on a home project server.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    Yeah ain't nobody using those.
    - henearkr 3y ago
      GNU/Linux is a nebula of many blocks that sometimes compete for the same role, but heavily rely on intercompatibility and adapter layers in order to allow users to choose the one they prefer in each spot (I know this has been less the case with Gnome recently, for example, but the ideal would be to stick to the principle). Even though the SysV shim layer can be maintained outside of RedHat, their decision is still a spoke in our wheels.
      - ilyt 3y ago
        Right but the decision has been made and ones that didn't go with systemd are probably fraction of a percent by installation count. Doesn't make sense to keep the cruft, especially that the alternative (writing unit to some app not delivering one) is like 5-10 lines of text and 5 minutes of work.
- Macha 3y ago
  Nor even was sysvinit always set up consistently, e.g. some distros just had init.d and rc.d, some had all the runlevels, and what those runlevels meant were different distro to distro
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Now the major distros have pretty much all standardized on systemd. Which is why I need to stop using Linux.

candiddevmike 3y ago

The cool thing about Linux is you can start your own distro where like minded people can contribute.

tyg13 3y ago

Are there any major distros (or even minor distros) that haven't committed to the /usr/-merge at this point? I know Debian has been having issues, but for the most part that decision has been made.

Arnavion 3y ago
Debian has merged /usr too. At least my current Debian 12 install does, and I'm pretty sure it had it before I upgraded it from Debian 11. I believe Debian's problem is (was?) only with migrating existing pre-merge installs.
- ilyt 3y ago
  Works fine. Debian 12: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 04-28 23:21 bin -> usr/bin lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 04-28 23:21 lib -> usr/lib lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 8 04-28 23:21 sbin -> usr/sbin that on install that was installed somewhere in 2007 then just dist-upgraded for 16 years.
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  The only "problem" Debian had was that dpkg maintainer had differing opinions on how the merge should have been done and used dpkg as a vessel to express those opinions. Merged /usr was already available in stretch, is the default since buster, and support for non-merged /usr has been dropped in bookworm (all non-merged systems are converted on upgrade now).
seba_dos1 3y ago
Debian didn't really have any issues with it either, merged /usr is the default since two stable versions ago already. There were just some troubles with internal politics around the topic.

josephcsible 3y ago

> On the other hand, systemd has been a great step away from fragmentation in distro-land. Why are you making it sound like a monoculture is a good thing?

nerdponx 3y ago
There's plenty of room between severe fragmentation and total monoculture.