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As long as p2p exit nodes are relatively uncommon, it will be relatively unbelievable for you to claim that "someone else" was doing the illegal things on your

As long as p2p exit nodes are relatively uncommon, it will be relatively unbelievable for you to claim that "someone else" was doing the illegal things on your network. But if p2p exit nodes were orders of magnitude more common, then the burden of proof would indisputably be the responsibility of the prosecutors, since anyone could credibly claim "someone else did it." And that's why this trope of "but what if someone does bad stuff on your network?!" is so frustratingly self-defeating: if everyone just ignored that risk, then everyone could have a p2p exit node, and the risk would be mitigated. It's a sort of prisoner's dilemma where nobody wants to be the early adopter of a system that would, on the whole, benefit all of us. A society is difficult to surveil when everyone uses Tor as both a client and an exit node, and onion routing is the default method of exchanging packets (some might say it should have been incorporated into the original design of the internet). So it's perhaps worth noting that adversaries of society, such as the NSA or FBI, have a great incentive to perpetuate fearmongering about p2p networks and the threat of "but whatabout muh criminals on muh network!" If you're reading this, maybe it's time to setup a Tor relay (with config flag `ExitRelay 1`).

genocidicbunny 3y ago
> But if p2p exit nodes were orders of magnitude more common, then the burden of proof would indisputably be the responsibility of the prosecutors, since anyone could credibly claim "someone else did it." I think I'm more cynical about our justice system, but the way I see it, this just gives them ammunition to go after anybody on a whim. Simply getting tangled up in the justice system, even if innocent, is an expensive and stressful thing. Most of us do not have the resources to just have a dedicated team of lawyers taking care of everything. So if everyone was running a Tor exit node, and it was known that there was CSAM accessed through some of them, an overzealous prosecutor could probably push through at least a search warrant of your computers because as a Tor exit node runner, there's a reasonable chance that CSAM was accessed via your node. You're not getting your stuff back for a while if that happens.
- TechBro8615 3y ago
  I agree, but that's why I labeled it a prisoner's dilemma. If literally everyone ran an exit node, then if prosecutors wanted to assume that any exit node facilitated the transfer of illegal material, then they would need to find other ways of proving criminality other than what packets were sent from your IP address. They can't seize everyone's hardware. If they wanted to obtain a warrant for you, they'd need more probable cause than "he's running an exit node" (because everyone runs an exit node). As it stands, there's already a certain level of injustice, because corporations like Google and Microsoft facilitate all sorts of illegal communications, and the worst that happens is they get a letter from the feds asking them nicely for their subscriber's information. The investigators don't jump to the conclusion that the CEO of Google is a child predator and seize all the Google servers. But for an independent system admin on a home network, that's exactly what they do, even though there's no fundamental difference other than the size of the operation (and the implicit assumption that exit relays are unusual, which is the unfair assumption I'm trying to draw attention to as an explanation for lack of plausible deniability on the part of the idealistic sysadmin in a world where exit nodes are unusual).
  - genocidicbunny 3y ago
    > If literally everyone ran an exit node This is impossible in practice though, so while an interesting thought experiment, it has little bearing on reality. Your local court isn't going to be running a Tor exit node on their systems. Your friendly nearby S&P500 corp isn't going to be running Tor exit nodes on their systems. Your local public library probably won't either. > They can't seize everyone's hardware. With your thought experiment, yes, but in practice that's not going to be the case. You're more likely to end up with very selective enforcement instead -- if you run a Tor exit node, the justice system can effectively blackmail you because at the very least they can cause you a very expensive headache. "Shame if we had to get a search warrant to make sure it wasn't you downloading some CSAM"
    - crtasm 3y ago
      You've reminded me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Freedom_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Freedom_Project https://github.com/LibraryFreedom/tor-exit-package/blob/master/resources.md https://github.com/LibraryFreedom/tor-exit-package/blob/mast...
midasuni 3y ago
Legality aside maybe I simply don’t want people using my computer to share images of children
- TechBro8615 3y ago
  Would you want to provide infrastructure for Russian and Chinese citizens to access the parts of the internet that are censored by their autocratic regimes? What if the only way to do that also requires incurring a risk that a child predator might use your computer too?

genocidicbunny 3y ago

> But if p2p exit nodes were orders of magnitude more common, then the burden of proof would indisputably be the responsibility of the prosecutors, since anyone could credibly claim "someone else did it." I think I'm more cynical about our justice system, but the way I see it, this just gives them ammunition to go after anybody on a whim. Simply getting tangled up in the justice system, even if innocent, is an expensive and stressful thing. Most of us do not have the resources to just have a dedicated team of lawyers taking care of everything. So if everyone was running a Tor exit node, and it was known that there was CSAM accessed through some of them, an overzealous prosecutor could probably push through at least a search warrant of your computers because as a Tor exit node runner, there's a reasonable chance that CSAM was accessed via your node. You're not getting your stuff back for a while if that happens.

TechBro8615 3y ago
I agree, but that's why I labeled it a prisoner's dilemma. If literally everyone ran an exit node, then if prosecutors wanted to assume that any exit node facilitated the transfer of illegal material, then they would need to find other ways of proving criminality other than what packets were sent from your IP address. They can't seize everyone's hardware. If they wanted to obtain a warrant for you, they'd need more probable cause than "he's running an exit node" (because everyone runs an exit node). As it stands, there's already a certain level of injustice, because corporations like Google and Microsoft facilitate all sorts of illegal communications, and the worst that happens is they get a letter from the feds asking them nicely for their subscriber's information. The investigators don't jump to the conclusion that the CEO of Google is a child predator and seize all the Google servers. But for an independent system admin on a home network, that's exactly what they do, even though there's no fundamental difference other than the size of the operation (and the implicit assumption that exit relays are unusual, which is the unfair assumption I'm trying to draw attention to as an explanation for lack of plausible deniability on the part of the idealistic sysadmin in a world where exit nodes are unusual).
- genocidicbunny 3y ago
  > If literally everyone ran an exit node This is impossible in practice though, so while an interesting thought experiment, it has little bearing on reality. Your local court isn't going to be running a Tor exit node on their systems. Your friendly nearby S&P500 corp isn't going to be running Tor exit nodes on their systems. Your local public library probably won't either. > They can't seize everyone's hardware. With your thought experiment, yes, but in practice that's not going to be the case. You're more likely to end up with very selective enforcement instead -- if you run a Tor exit node, the justice system can effectively blackmail you because at the very least they can cause you a very expensive headache. "Shame if we had to get a search warrant to make sure it wasn't you downloading some CSAM"
  - crtasm 3y ago
    You've reminded me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Freedom_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Freedom_Project https://github.com/LibraryFreedom/tor-exit-package/blob/master/resources.md https://github.com/LibraryFreedom/tor-exit-package/blob/mast...

midasuni 3y ago

Legality aside maybe I simply don’t want people using my computer to share images of children

TechBro8615 3y ago
Would you want to provide infrastructure for Russian and Chinese citizens to access the parts of the internet that are censored by their autocratic regimes? What if the only way to do that also requires incurring a risk that a child predator might use your computer too?