4 ms·

$10 per month +$0.05 per connection +$0.02 per hour +$0.04 per GB (I use about 300 GB) So in total: $10 + about $12 + $1.5 (30x connections per day) = $23.5 pe

by r_lee 3y ago

$10 per month +$0.05 per connection +$0.02 per hour +$0.04 per GB (I use about 300 GB) So in total: $10 + about $12 + $1.5 (30x connections per day) = $23.5 per month Mullvad is $5. Using the big 3 for a VPN is suicide. You do not want to host a business based on bandwidth on those. A cool tech demo but definitely not viable as a business. Also, why a California LLC?

codetrotter 3y ago
Mullvad is awesome, but it’s not even about the price.
- pierat 3y ago
  Bunches I know are fleeing Mullvad due to their 'no port forwarding" policy now in effect. ProtonVPN still allows forwarding and is what quite a few fellow pie-rats are now using. Mullvad is dead.
  - codetrotter 3y ago
    Mullvad has a policy of not keeping logs, and they have gone to extreme lengths to implement the technical side of things to ensure that this really is true. Other VPN providers claim to not keep logs and you have to take their word for it. But then whoops it turns out they did keep logs after all. Mullvad is the only VPN provider that puts its money where its mouth is. Swedish police recently tried to raid Mullvad, but the tech ensured there were no logs for them to take https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/21/23692580/mullvad-vpn-raid-sweden-police https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/21/23692580/mullvad-vpn-raid... Meanwhile ProtonMail was legally forced to reveal one of its users IP logs a few months ago. https://www.privacyaffairs.com/protonmail-surrenders-user-logs/ https://www.privacyaffairs.com/protonmail-surrenders-user-lo... What reason is there to believe that Proton will be in a better position to protect their VPN users, than they were at protecting their Mail users?
    - protonmail 3y ago
      It's important not to confuse the various Proton services. Proton Mail is considered to be a communication service, and in most countries (including Switzerland), communication services are regulated to some extent. Privacy isn't a blank check to break the law with impunity, and all companies need to comply with the local law. That being said, Swiss law is very restrictive, and there are a lot of hurdles that one needs to jump through to get a court order. And even with a court order (and has been proved multiple times in court), there is no way to break Proton Mail's encryption. Privacy is not the same as anonymity, and due to the way the internet works, if anonymity is what you are going after, you have to exercise proper infosec and take preventive measures, such as using Tor or VPN. Under Swiss law, the treatment of VPNs is different. So VPNs can indeed be no-logs. No-logs VPN, is also possible in other countries as well. What makes Switzerland different, and possibly unique, is that within the current Swiss legal framework, Proton VPN also does not have forced logging obligations. So, a no-logs US VPN could for instance, get a NSL (National Security Letter) to start logging particular users, but that's not possible in Switzerland. In addition to that, VPN is mostly impossible for law enforcement to ask for something reasonable, as there's no "identity" for the traffic going out of our server. There's practically no chance of law enforcement to know what account to ask for. Finally, it's worth noting that in October 2021 (after the case you mentioned), Proton won in court against the Swiss government and as a result, email services cannot be considered telecommunications providers, and consequently are not subject to the data retention requirements imposed on telecommunications providers. You can find more details here: https://proton.me/blog/court-strengthens-email-privacy https://proton.me/blog/court-strengthens-email-privacy.
      - r_lee 3y ago
        If that ruling were to be overturned, would Proton be open to integrating the VPN service in a way that people who access Protonmail from the clearnet would be tunneled in some way? Or some kind of mode where it would reject any logins unless coming from the Proton VPN ASN etc?
    - r_lee 3y ago
      From what Proton has said, it seems like the Swiss courts allow the authorities to compel email service providers like Proton to log IPs for them, but they've also said that they can't do that for VPNs, I don't know if the situation has changed but I remember them saying that.
water9 3y ago
Because paying taxes is fun
croddin 3y ago
I read it as $10 is the minimum to add to your account not a monthly fee, so just $13.5 for you and potentially cheaper than mullvad for light users, is that correct?
hnav 3y ago
Who cares if it's on big 3? If it takes off and they start getting charged 10c/GB, after about 10-20k spend for the month they'll be paying about 5c/GB so close to breaking even. More importantly, at that point they'll have a business with 10s of thousands of revenue which is an opportunity to either - work on minimizing the cost and carve out a margin - go to VC and say "hey I have this VPN service, people seem to like it"
- jandrese 3y ago
  Because if you come out of their IP space every major website assumes you are a bot and will start slamming you with obnoxious CAPCHAs and sometimes just outright block access.
  - hnav 3y ago
    Right, and then OP can bring their /24 to AWS or migrate the data plane off onto a less known provider?
  - packetlost 3y ago
    That's pretty much a given on any VPN service provider though. What's your point?
michaelt 3y ago
Is there a per-month charge? I know the pricing page says "Prepaid starting at $10" but isn't that just the minimum top up?
kwanbix 3y ago
I don't think it is $10 per month. Is whatever you use: $0.05 per connection +$0.02 per hour +$0.04 per GB. $10 is the minium you can add to your account, and then it deducts from there.
- gigapotential 3y ago
  This is correct! There is no per-month cost, opening account is free.
gigapotential 3y ago
There is no per-month cost, account is free. $10 is your starting prepaid balance - that you consume by using UpVPN. California LLC because I'm a resident. For pricing I describe more in detail in these comments: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36512794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36512794 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36513552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36513552 -
- r_lee 3y ago
  Ah, I see. I think honestly you should try to phase out the "per hour" pricing, and just somehow make it so that each connection doesn't need a separate server, as it is just routing in the end, I think it would be easier to market just as a "no BS subscription!" VPN service, which I think could have a market. As for the California LLC, I just asked because the California LLC is kind of known for being a PITA, with the fees, privacy, etc. and from what I know, you don't actually have one unless you have physical presence, but then there's some tax filing implications if you file in e.g. Delaware or Wyoming so I don't know too well. GL!

by r_lee 3y ago

codetrotter 3y ago

Mullvad is awesome, but it’s not even about the price.

pierat 3y ago
Bunches I know are fleeing Mullvad due to their 'no port forwarding" policy now in effect. ProtonVPN still allows forwarding and is what quite a few fellow pie-rats are now using. Mullvad is dead.
- codetrotter 3y ago
  Mullvad has a policy of not keeping logs, and they have gone to extreme lengths to implement the technical side of things to ensure that this really is true. Other VPN providers claim to not keep logs and you have to take their word for it. But then whoops it turns out they did keep logs after all. Mullvad is the only VPN provider that puts its money where its mouth is. Swedish police recently tried to raid Mullvad, but the tech ensured there were no logs for them to take https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/21/23692580/mullvad-vpn-raid-sweden-police https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/21/23692580/mullvad-vpn-raid... Meanwhile ProtonMail was legally forced to reveal one of its users IP logs a few months ago. https://www.privacyaffairs.com/protonmail-surrenders-user-logs/ https://www.privacyaffairs.com/protonmail-surrenders-user-lo... What reason is there to believe that Proton will be in a better position to protect their VPN users, than they were at protecting their Mail users?
  - protonmail 3y ago
    It's important not to confuse the various Proton services. Proton Mail is considered to be a communication service, and in most countries (including Switzerland), communication services are regulated to some extent. Privacy isn't a blank check to break the law with impunity, and all companies need to comply with the local law. That being said, Swiss law is very restrictive, and there are a lot of hurdles that one needs to jump through to get a court order. And even with a court order (and has been proved multiple times in court), there is no way to break Proton Mail's encryption. Privacy is not the same as anonymity, and due to the way the internet works, if anonymity is what you are going after, you have to exercise proper infosec and take preventive measures, such as using Tor or VPN. Under Swiss law, the treatment of VPNs is different. So VPNs can indeed be no-logs. No-logs VPN, is also possible in other countries as well. What makes Switzerland different, and possibly unique, is that within the current Swiss legal framework, Proton VPN also does not have forced logging obligations. So, a no-logs US VPN could for instance, get a NSL (National Security Letter) to start logging particular users, but that's not possible in Switzerland. In addition to that, VPN is mostly impossible for law enforcement to ask for something reasonable, as there's no "identity" for the traffic going out of our server. There's practically no chance of law enforcement to know what account to ask for. Finally, it's worth noting that in October 2021 (after the case you mentioned), Proton won in court against the Swiss government and as a result, email services cannot be considered telecommunications providers, and consequently are not subject to the data retention requirements imposed on telecommunications providers. You can find more details here: https://proton.me/blog/court-strengthens-email-privacy https://proton.me/blog/court-strengthens-email-privacy.
    - r_lee 3y ago
      If that ruling were to be overturned, would Proton be open to integrating the VPN service in a way that people who access Protonmail from the clearnet would be tunneled in some way? Or some kind of mode where it would reject any logins unless coming from the Proton VPN ASN etc?
  - r_lee 3y ago
    From what Proton has said, it seems like the Swiss courts allow the authorities to compel email service providers like Proton to log IPs for them, but they've also said that they can't do that for VPNs, I don't know if the situation has changed but I remember them saying that.

water9 3y ago

Because paying taxes is fun

croddin 3y ago

I read it as $10 is the minimum to add to your account not a monthly fee, so just $13.5 for you and potentially cheaper than mullvad for light users, is that correct?

hnav 3y ago

Who cares if it's on big 3? If it takes off and they start getting charged 10c/GB, after about 10-20k spend for the month they'll be paying about 5c/GB so close to breaking even. More importantly, at that point they'll have a business with 10s of thousands of revenue which is an opportunity to either - work on minimizing the cost and carve out a margin - go to VC and say "hey I have this VPN service, people seem to like it"

jandrese 3y ago
Because if you come out of their IP space every major website assumes you are a bot and will start slamming you with obnoxious CAPCHAs and sometimes just outright block access.
- hnav 3y ago
  Right, and then OP can bring their /24 to AWS or migrate the data plane off onto a less known provider?
- packetlost 3y ago
  That's pretty much a given on any VPN service provider though. What's your point?

michaelt 3y ago

Is there a per-month charge? I know the pricing page says "Prepaid starting at $10" but isn't that just the minimum top up?

kwanbix 3y ago

I don't think it is $10 per month. Is whatever you use: $0.05 per connection +$0.02 per hour +$0.04 per GB. $10 is the minium you can add to your account, and then it deducts from there.

gigapotential 3y ago
This is correct! There is no per-month cost, opening account is free.

gigapotential 3y ago

There is no per-month cost, account is free. $10 is your starting prepaid balance - that you consume by using UpVPN. California LLC because I'm a resident. For pricing I describe more in detail in these comments: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36512794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36512794 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36513552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36513552 -

r_lee 3y ago
Ah, I see. I think honestly you should try to phase out the "per hour" pricing, and just somehow make it so that each connection doesn't need a separate server, as it is just routing in the end, I think it would be easier to market just as a "no BS subscription!" VPN service, which I think could have a market. As for the California LLC, I just asked because the California LLC is kind of known for being a PITA, with the fees, privacy, etc. and from what I know, you don't actually have one unless you have physical presence, but then there's some tax filing implications if you file in e.g. Delaware or Wyoming so I don't know too well. GL!