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Save My House From Apple
- kenneth_reitz 15y agoApple did this to me too, without explanation. They've owed me $13,860 for over a year now. You're 100% at their mercy.
- madmaze 15y agoWe should start a poll to see how common this is
- madmaze 15y agothough after looking im not sure how to do so
- someone13 15y agoYou need a certain amount of karma to make polls. Not sure how much - but it's more than 465, which is what I have.
- timerickson 15y agoYou only need 20 karma to make polls.
- symkat 15y agoI believe you can use http://news.ycombinator.com/newpoll http://news.ycombinator.com/newpoll
- rbarooah 15y agoI'd like to hear more details before a poll would be meaningful. With that kind of money owing, wouldn't legal action be a reasonable option by now?
- potatolicious 15y agoLegal action from an independent dev against Apple is like challenging an aircraft carrier with a golf club.
- rbarooah 15y agoNot so if they owe him "$13,860". Having a lot of money and a big legal department doesn't automatically make it easy to get out of unpaid debts. Courts take these things very seriously. If there's a contractual get-out clause that allows Apple to avoid payment, or if there's something in the developers actions that has created ambiguity, then it would be good for all of us to understand the details. A poll that basically says "hands up if you think Apple owes you money" is not informative.
- ANH 15y agoSee the recent case of the woman who won against Honda in small claims court for advertising inaccurate mileage: http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/02/woman-wins-honda-hybrid-mileage-suit/ http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/02/woman-wins-honda-hyb... Of course, Honda plans to appeal, so...
- weaksauce 15y agoPlease elaborate on the details. This is something that should be brought to light.
- kubov 15y ago--initial comment, Hello, Hacker news! Apple software distribution system is a feudal system where, unfortunately, programmer is a peasant.
- gurkendoktor 15y agoBeing employed by any normal company makes you 100% dependent on a single entitity. In contrast, being independent allows you to put your eggs into different bags. The App Stores are a part of it by providing international payment. What would you suggest instead?
- kubov 15y agoI don't mean that, this kind of work is bad I mean the apple attitude to developers is bad. I haven't thought it through anyway, sorry.
- leephillips 15y agoThey've screwed you again: your donation slider doesn't work on the iPhone. Best of luck to you.
- Yaggo 15y agoJust FYI, iOS happily supports <input type=range>.
- petercooper 15y agoThis is the same Apple that plans for GateKeeper to check a certificate server for blacklisted apps and developers in OS X 10.8. Imagine not even being in the App Store and your app's mainstream customers with default settings seeing a scary warning message because your certificate was accidentally blacklisted. Coming to the HN front page later this year..? :-) Orienting your business around the ecosystem of a corporation with an itchy trigger finger is a tricky game of dice.
- madmaze 15y ago"Coming to the HN front page later this year..?" I assume this may be a theme in the making.. I wonder if App Store like ecosystems have similar issues. I havnt heared of any in the android market, but im sure similar cases can be found.
- pgeorgi 15y agoStill, with android market, once your app has a reputation, you have a fair chance to distribute by yourself, as few devices lock down the side-loading capability.
- steve-howard 15y agoExcept on AT&T.
- StavrosK 15y agoThat's just one carrier in the US.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- dkulchenko 15y agoThat hasn't been the case for months, AT&T has been allowing sideloading for a while now.
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- michaelhoffman 15y agoI'm amazed anyone decides to develop for the Apple app stores. This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened, by a long shot. Due diligence means not putting all your eggs in the Apple basket.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- swang 15y agoWhy isn't there a Developer Relations department at Apple to handle problems like this? Apple has made billions upon billions of dollars because developers have decided it was the best environment to make money and they put their weight behind iOS/Apple, yet somehow stuff like this drops through the cracks. I mean am I really going to feel safe quitting my job to make iOS/Mac apps if Apple can just cut off my revenue stream without recourse? This is an easy problem for Apple to fix and it'll cost them somewhere down the line where someone with the next big app decides not to chance it because he's heard that Apple may just dump you and not give any reasons why.
- azov 15y agoBecause they don't have to. Because they can screw you as much as they like, and you will still be developing for their platform, buying their hardware, paying for their developer program, etc. Because you have no choice - they are a monopoly in mobile space, and you can't just ignore them (while they can ignore you). Because by not being their customer you're hurting yourself more then them. Basically, because they can.
- rbarooah 15y agoExcept that they do.
- jrmg 15y agoWhy isn't there a Developer Relations department at Apple to handle problems like this? Actually, although lots of people seem to think Apple doesn't offer contact by phone, it does: https://developer.apple.com/contact/phone.php https://developer.apple.com/contact/phone.php Having said that, presumably these were the very people not assisting the OP. I've never called them about an App Store issue, only about account issues (problems with bank details, changing from personal to company account etc.)
- calydon 15y agoI wish I could blame my own impoverishment (and consequently my family's) on anything other than my own foolishness but I can't, so I donated. The money's probably safer with him anyway.
- suresk 15y agoThat sucks, and I hope you get things sorted out. My apps are just for extra cash, but I'd still be pretty upset if I were in your situation. Unfortunately, this highlights the drawbacks of relying on a third-party for all of your income, especially when the relationship is one-sided. Apple's App Store is an incredible opportunity for a lot of developers, but for the vast majority, Apple has very little accountability to you. This is no different than the people who build a business around AdSense, only to be terminated and receive the silent treatment at some point - which itself is nothing new, as this has been going on with affiliate programs since I got involved with them in the mid-90's. If I've learned one thing, it's this: Don't ever build your company around another company unless you have a really good personal relationship with them or a strong, fair contract.
- narad 15y agoYou are using Paypal for donations. There have been many horror stories on HN about people doing a donation drive and getting accounts closed by Paypal citing ToS.
- mahyarm 15y agoBut isn't he 'selling' something (software) in return for those 'donations'?
- freehunter 15y agoFrom what happened to a game developer in the past (can't remember the name, it was some isometric zombie game), even though the dev was "selling" the game, the button said "donate" and he wasn't a non-profit, so all the money got frozen. Actually thinking about it, that may have been Google Checkout, but the point still remains.
- rbarooah 15y agoIt's definitely a risk. You can actually ask PayPal proactively to review your site to see whether your use of the word 'Donate' is acceptable for them. I did for one of my sites and they were very quick to respond. This still gives you no guarantees that they won't change their minds later, but it does at least give some reassurance about their current thinking.
- micahflee 15y agoI wonder if he's planning on figuring out how to make money from software sales in a way that doesn't involve Apple. They're total asshats when it comes to things like this.
- andreipop 15y agoBest of luck
- evanlong 15y agoSounds like really poor personal finances. An individual should have at least 6 months to a year of savings so a 2-4 week outage is really no dent at all to your well being.
- dmazin 15y agoAh, so I'm guessing you understand this guy's situation entirely, allowing you to comment on his personal finances without sounding like a jackass. Otherwise, you wouldn't have posted, right?
- jfoutz 15y agoIt seems like a jerky thing to say. However, by the looks of things, OP had a couple of years to save up for a rainy day. I'm willing to grant that apple is horrible, evil, son of the devil, voted for Palin, whatever. but really, is this any worse than a car accident or a heart attack?
- mgkimsal 15y ago"is this any worse than a car accident or a heart attack?" In some ways yes. We generally have car and medical insurance to help with the financial side of catastrophic events. There is no 'software dev' insurance to help mitigate things if someone doesn't pay you or reneges on their contract. You have to bear all the costs of legal and administrative costs in chasing down the other party. Perhaps some dev insurance program would be able to bear up to $x legal cost in exchange for y% of your burden.
- evanlong 15y ago"Apple removed my software (how I pay the bills) from the Mac App Store" "We've lost nearly half a month of income (so far) due to this and there is also some question as to when we might hope to see payment from Apple for the previous month's (January) software sales. It looks like that may not happen any time soon. (This isn't the only case where Apple has hurt people who do things right lately.)" So the individual hasn't seen a check for 2 months. We are a nation that loves to buy more than we can afford. Why should I feel sorry and bail someone out for making poor choices prior to this two month period of suckiness handed down by Apple? I am taking it as an opportunity to remind people. That rainy days happen. And it's best if you plan in advance. However, we as a society would rather buy a brand new iPad 3 instead of put money in the bank.
- SeoxyS 15y agoI donated some cash because I feel bad, but I hope you've learnt your lesson: Do not base your entire livelyhood at the mercy of anybody but yourself, and especially not a huge corporation. This also goes for anybody who takes out a mortgage they can't afford. Don't ever get any debt or create any expenses you will no longer be able to pay if you got fired tomorrow.
- gfodor 15y agoLet's be honest here: is not a startup based upon putting your entire livelihood at the mercy of a few small actors? That first customer, that first investor, that first employee, that first acquisition offer? Of course, we take measures to try to minimize the impact any one party, deal, or decision has on our overall success, but the fact is that there are often choke points in building a business or company where you do have to put all your eggs in one or two baskets. Not sure if that's the case here, but it's certainly not a hard and fast rule that you always have to avoid taking "all-in" risks. (Though maybe that's more the case if you have a family to feed and insufficient savings to avoid the fall...)
- SeoxyS 15y agoStarting a startup is like going to Vegas: you absolutely need to give yourself a limit before hand of how much you're willing to lose, stick to it, and go in expecting to lose it. If you have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay, you should not work at a startup. One of the reasons why we've had this latest recessions is because consumers have been financially irresponsable, taking out mortgages they can't afford, relying 100% on their salary for income and having no backup plan. If I were to lose my job tomorrow, I would be fine for the most part. I'd probably have to move out and get a cheaper apartment, but I'd be fine. I'm not shackled to a mortgage and have no debt of any kind. I'm working towards success, but I'm ready for whatever life decides to throw my way.
- jowiar 15y ago"Do not base your entire livelyhood at the mercy of anybody but yourself, and especially not a huge corporation." This seems to apply to a vast, vast majority of the population... In our little tech/entrepreneur bubble, we're the exception, not the rule, in that we can generate income largely by ourselves.
- seejay 15y agoOh wow! This is Bryan from the Linux Action show.
- choros12 15y agoThat's the thing I don't understand. Why some developers are so prone to the naive following the latest fashion... I mean really. Look, why to spend any time writing software that might be just killed overnight by a big faceless corporation? The same Apple Fan Boys who hate Adobe Flash because it is "closed" and not html5 "standard" as were told by their guru are at the very same time so heavily invested in Apple Corp closed eco-system that is just so much worse than anything that Adobe does. I just don't get it.
- SomeCallMeTim 15y ago> I just don't get it. I've read that, in order to get the #1 slot in "top grossing" for iOS apps, you need to be earning between $40k-$100k per day. The publisher I'm working with has been sitting on an app that's been in the top 5 grossing for 5-6 months. Follow the money...
- choros12 15y agosure, then write Flash people make $$$ on Flash too.
- choros12 15y agohey Fan Boys! Don't down-vote just because you lack argumentation!
- cageface 15y agoThe writing is on the wall. The smart way to make money in the app stores is consulting for somebody else.
- eridius 15y agoApple provides a free storefront for Mac apps. It is by no means the only way to purchase Mac apps. A glitch occurs that removes a piece of software from the free Apple-provided storefront. ... I'm having a really hard time figuring out the part here where Apple is some evil entity depriving a developer of their livelihood. Sure, this sucks, but it's not like nobody can buy your software. There's plenty of Mac software out there that isn't even on the Mac app store to begin with, so I'm having a hard time figuring out why this developer is having such a huge problem that he needs to resort to begging for donations.
- VonLipwig 15y agoI sympathise with the developers plight and this is a reason why I haven't wanted to get into App development. If your not battling people cloning your games, you have a constant axe swinging above your head that the app store may find fault with your App and remove it. You then have changing rules and requirements in the App Store.. The thing that bugs me a bit though is how the developer is asking for money. "Save my house." Its been 14 days since this revenue stream was compromised and the guy is apparently in financial trouble. This doesn't sound like Apples fault. This is a lack of financial planning. I am by no means well off. I get by. My partner, my child and I were struck down by a bad virus last month. For 3 weeks I couldn't work, I could just about roll out of bed to get to the loo. I am a freelancer, I have no sick pay, no payment protection etc. For 3 weeks I earned nothing. My family is on a budget for the next month but we are fine. We have savings to get us through 3 months of joblessness. If 14 days of near zero income pushes you over the edge and risks you loosing your house then you probably need a career change. That or its time to spend less and save more. For many profession's this isn't possible. Some people need several jobs to make ends meet. However, for a I expect fairly talented developer there are plenty of jobs and opportunites to get you on the right track.
- Praveens 15y agoDone mate!! I do agree with the pains one has to undergo developing for the itunes store and more so when the glitch on their part directly affects you.
- neebz 15y agoI know the job market sucks but I've been to many countries and if there's one industry with tons of demand and limited supply; it's software development. it's hard for me to accept that an iPhone developer is down to live on donations in the current job climate.
- ColdAsIce 15y agoFuck you and your idiot decision to "support" yourself from someone else work and bread - Apples. Apple makes money off of you, you dont make money off of them. The AppStore is not yours.
- Valdemar 15y agoAnd this is why app-stores with single-sided and super-rigid rules are a BAD thing. They operate as a black box, with you having NO way of knowing why, how, if, when or what is going to happen. This is why Chrome store, Windows Store and the App store and all the others are just bad for business (in general). If they decide they don't like it, then you're fucked! You just DON'T trust a single entity to handle all your sales and finances while they have ABSOLUTE power to terminate their service any time they want. Have a backup, sell it on your own web site.. oh no you can't because this is Apple...
- ekianjo 15y agoA typical example of putting all your eggs in the same basket. When you are an app developper, distributing your software in different platforms/means would probably reduce the risk of that happening.
- noisebleed 15y agoSomewhat tangental, but this is the second post I've seen here recently that plays up the ".. and this happened on my birthday!" angle ( this being the first: http://lunduke.com/?p=2206 http://lunduke.com/?p=2206 ). I'm extremely sympathetic to anyone who's struggling, but seriously, why should a birthday matter in this context? You can debate Apple's app store policy, but should they be expected to factor in stuff like birthdays when they enforce it? It just seems like a cheap pity play that, for me at least, undermines whatever point is being made.
- ojilles 15y agoThat looks like the same guy?
- noisebleed 15y agoOh, yeah, so it is. I didn't notice initially. Probably explains why I was so reminded. Again though.. I hate to see devs getting screwed over in any context, and I wish Bryan the best, but personally I think he's making his point poorly. Apple is not trying to take his house, and his birthday is irrelevant to their actions.
- socialist_coder 15y agoThis seems shady to me. I have apps on the iOS store as well (just like many of you) so I am aware of the emails you get from Apple telling you that your Apple developer account is going to expire. I have never heard of another developer having a problem with renewing their credentials. If there was an actual bug, I don't doubt more developers would be affected. Honestly, I bet he forgot to renew, his apps got pulled, and now he's scrambling to cover his losses.
- J3L2404 15y agoMaybe not. http://lunduke.com/?p=2206 http://lunduke.com/?p=2206 In the comments someone mentions a similar situation that resolved when his original account expired.
- 15y ago
- lignuist 15y agoI have two Macs, two iPhones, an iPad and some Apple Software and I enjoyed them. Also I told my Father to buy Apple products (since I'm the one who tells him how his computer works). I saw Apple getting more and more ridiculous over the last few years (there are hundreds of stories), so here is my conclusion: Getting more money makes them more evil. That's it for me. I'm not going to buy any Apple products again. I was using a lot of OSS tools, so switching to Linux should be easy. My Advice to software developers is: Try to make cross-platform software. You are giving such companies much less power this way.
- oleganza 15y agoAppStore is not the only way to sell the software. And I don't get why instead of asking for donation he didn't put a "buy button" right there, on the story page? I'd rather buy his stuff than simply donate him money. This way it would be better for both of us. Instead he asks for money "for free" and does not provide a direct link to buy his app. This looks really strange.
- acidblue 15y agoI'm thinking the same thing. There many, many sites that sell their own software. Just set up a paypal, google or whatever account and sell it. Don't just beg for money because your vendor is shitty. Perhaps this developer just didn't think this through and posted in a rage. Almost sounded like another Nigerian banking scam. Hopefully they figure out a better plan for the future. Apple's store is just one option, though an easy one.
- jasonlotito 15y ago"Everyone who donates will receive a free copy of my video game (2299 : THE GAME) and my visual app development tool (Illumination Software Creator). Both run on Linux, Windows and Mac. I'll also throw in the first two issues of my comic book (Road-Sign Hank)."
- AndyKelley 15y agoNote that if you donate money to this guy, you're indirectly encouraging apple's behaviour.
- jiggy2011 15y agoI think stuff like this is one of the reasons that there aren't many serious big ticket apps on the store (at ones that aren't also available elsewhere). If I were to develop for iPhone there is no way I would invest serious R&D time and money into something with the risk that this could happen. More likely I'd just build a bunch of $1-5 apps and have them suddenly flatlining either because of this or user apathy factored into my plans. I wouldn't trust the arbitrary mercies of any large corporation to put food on my (hypothetical) kid's table.
- rbanffy 15y agoWhat bothers me is the apparent lack of accountability. Apple pulls an app off the app store any time under rules so complicated and vague this power becomes completely discretionary. Or does it by mistake. I'd like to see the process Apple uses to ensure a rogue censor will not remove an app from the store because they don't like it, its publisher or got paid by a competitor. The worst part is that Apple isn't even the worst offender around.
- devgutt 15y agoI feel sorry for his family, but rely exclusively in apple store, or whatever store, is insane. Actually, the all idea of stores is, IMHO, a bad idea, because who control the app's relevance is not the user, and this is very wrong in a market. My 2 cents.
- napierzaza 15y agoCould these posts get anymore personal? A picture of your child? Save my house? I think it's great that you're supporting yourself doing this, but if you don't have a safety buffer than you're putting yourself at risk.
- RyanMcGreal 15y agoObligatory: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/07/12/WebsThePlace http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/07/12/WebsThePla...