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> You're really buying a transferable lease for 6-7 years on a device that has a hard stop to go to landfill after that time due to software obsolescence by way

> You're really buying a transferable lease for 6-7 years on a device that has a hard stop to go to landfill after that time due to software obsolescence by way of unpatched vulnerabilities. If you define a lease as a period of time where a device gets security patches, has this ever not been the case?

freedomben 3y ago
> has this ever not been the case? Windows XP got patches for over 10 years IIRC. It was a different time, but you did ask "ever"
- thatguy0900 3y ago
  I'm not really seeing a big enough difference between 7 and 10 years to call one ownership and the other leasing to be honest
- setr 3y ago
  …so it still has a hard stop, just 3-4 years further into the future?
- CivBase 3y ago
  Windows 10 was released in July 2015 and is currently set to receive updates until October 2025. That's a little over 10 years. And with previous generations of Windows there was nothing really stopping you from upgrading to a newer OS on the same old hardware - although you might run into serious performance issues with a modern Windows OS on 10+ year old hardware. But you could also switch to plenty of other OSes. I assume that's also an option for 7+ year old Macs?
- interactivecode 3y ago
  XP got patches for so long just because many many governments and very large corporations convinced microsoft to keep extending it.
- CrampusDestrus 3y ago
  by the same metric the iPhone 5s still got some patches even this year [1], which makes it "supported" for 10 years [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-en/HT213597 https://support.apple.com/en-en/HT213597
- ryandrake 3y ago
  I can also run modern Linux distributions on 20 year old hardware. The "landfill" comment was likely just about how software support periods have become so short, meaning for the current crop of computing devices (including actual computers, phones, tablets) the hardware itself almost always outlasts the company's support period for official software updates, which is disgraceful. I have drawers full of old phones that turn on, display is perfect/bright, battery is reasonably strong, can connect to WiFi, everything works, except the company threw their arms up and gave up on software support.
gjsman-1000 3y ago
What's the comparison, Windows? Well, sucks if you bought a Windows 10 device with an Intel 7th Gen processor in the first half of 2017. You will only be getting... ~8 years, just like Apple more or less; even if most PCs will probably last longer than that. As for, "well we can install Linux..." that doesn't make even a measurable dent in e-waste.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  Plus we can install Linux applies to Macs as well. It basically just runs on Intel ones more or less and for Apple Silicon there is the Asahi Project.
- highwaylights 3y ago
  I mean, kind of? You can still install Windows 11 on the 7th gen chip, they just don’t make it easy to encourage people to upgrade to secure systems. It’s not at all arbitrary though, in the way Apple culls supported machines.
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    > You can still install Windows 11 on the 7th gen chip, they just don’t make it easy to encourage people to upgrade to secure systems. It’s not at all arbitrary though, in the way Apple culls supported machines. "It’s not at all arbitrary though," - Literally Windows 11's launch was filled with months of controversy because the developers admitted the 8th Gen cutoff was arbitrary. Later we got some theories that it might have been MBEC support but not all supported processors have MBEC.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  > As for, "well we can install Linux..." that doesn't make even a measurable dent in e-waste. Only if you insist on thrashing the device after you're done with it. Be a sport an sell it or donate it to someone who will install Linux on it if you can't and you'll see that 'e-waste' (what a word...) problem disappear as quick as you can say 'linux'. I'm one of those someone's by the way, not having bought any new laptop or server since 2001. I'm typing this on a 'late 2009' 27" iMac running Debian, parked next to a Thinkpad P-50 running Debian, traffic is going out through a virtual router on the DL380 G7 under the stairs running Debian. My children use machines running Debian as does my 85yo mother. Some of my friends have also seen the light and moved to Linux running on used machines, generally all it takes is to put an SSD in place of the spinning drive and the things 'fly'.
majormajor 3y ago
Some others here are comparing to Windows but the parent commenter here was saying it was a shift for Apple, so here's a snapshot of that from a machine I used to own: 10.3 Panther required a G3 or better and USB, which (in laptop-land) dropped the pre-Lombard G3 Powerbooks from 1998. So the 2003 OS dropped 1998 machines, so just 4 years of coverage. "Security vulnerabilities" weren't exactly the same thing in those days as they are today, with less online apps, but in a way it was also more obsolete more quickly because hardware moved quickly: you could have a 233Mhz to 300Mhz 1998 G3, but the new 2003 Powerbook G4s were clocked at 867Mhz-1.25Ghz - nearly 4x across the board. I get more usage out of 5+ year old Macs now than I ever did in the past.

freedomben 3y ago

> has this ever not been the case? Windows XP got patches for over 10 years IIRC. It was a different time, but you did ask "ever"

thatguy0900 3y ago
I'm not really seeing a big enough difference between 7 and 10 years to call one ownership and the other leasing to be honest
setr 3y ago
…so it still has a hard stop, just 3-4 years further into the future?
CivBase 3y ago
Windows 10 was released in July 2015 and is currently set to receive updates until October 2025. That's a little over 10 years. And with previous generations of Windows there was nothing really stopping you from upgrading to a newer OS on the same old hardware - although you might run into serious performance issues with a modern Windows OS on 10+ year old hardware. But you could also switch to plenty of other OSes. I assume that's also an option for 7+ year old Macs?
interactivecode 3y ago
XP got patches for so long just because many many governments and very large corporations convinced microsoft to keep extending it.
CrampusDestrus 3y ago
by the same metric the iPhone 5s still got some patches even this year [1], which makes it "supported" for 10 years [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-en/HT213597 https://support.apple.com/en-en/HT213597
ryandrake 3y ago
I can also run modern Linux distributions on 20 year old hardware. The "landfill" comment was likely just about how software support periods have become so short, meaning for the current crop of computing devices (including actual computers, phones, tablets) the hardware itself almost always outlasts the company's support period for official software updates, which is disgraceful. I have drawers full of old phones that turn on, display is perfect/bright, battery is reasonably strong, can connect to WiFi, everything works, except the company threw their arms up and gave up on software support.

gjsman-1000 3y ago

What's the comparison, Windows? Well, sucks if you bought a Windows 10 device with an Intel 7th Gen processor in the first half of 2017. You will only be getting... ~8 years, just like Apple more or less; even if most PCs will probably last longer than that. As for, "well we can install Linux..." that doesn't make even a measurable dent in e-waste.

lockhouse 3y ago
Plus we can install Linux applies to Macs as well. It basically just runs on Intel ones more or less and for Apple Silicon there is the Asahi Project.
highwaylights 3y ago
I mean, kind of? You can still install Windows 11 on the 7th gen chip, they just don’t make it easy to encourage people to upgrade to secure systems. It’s not at all arbitrary though, in the way Apple culls supported machines.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  > You can still install Windows 11 on the 7th gen chip, they just don’t make it easy to encourage people to upgrade to secure systems. It’s not at all arbitrary though, in the way Apple culls supported machines. "It’s not at all arbitrary though," - Literally Windows 11's launch was filled with months of controversy because the developers admitted the 8th Gen cutoff was arbitrary. Later we got some theories that it might have been MBEC support but not all supported processors have MBEC.
the_third_wave 3y ago
> As for, "well we can install Linux..." that doesn't make even a measurable dent in e-waste. Only if you insist on thrashing the device after you're done with it. Be a sport an sell it or donate it to someone who will install Linux on it if you can't and you'll see that 'e-waste' (what a word...) problem disappear as quick as you can say 'linux'. I'm one of those someone's by the way, not having bought any new laptop or server since 2001. I'm typing this on a 'late 2009' 27" iMac running Debian, parked next to a Thinkpad P-50 running Debian, traffic is going out through a virtual router on the DL380 G7 under the stairs running Debian. My children use machines running Debian as does my 85yo mother. Some of my friends have also seen the light and moved to Linux running on used machines, generally all it takes is to put an SSD in place of the spinning drive and the things 'fly'.

majormajor 3y ago

Some others here are comparing to Windows but the parent commenter here was saying it was a shift for Apple, so here's a snapshot of that from a machine I used to own: 10.3 Panther required a G3 or better and USB, which (in laptop-land) dropped the pre-Lombard G3 Powerbooks from 1998. So the 2003 OS dropped 1998 machines, so just 4 years of coverage. "Security vulnerabilities" weren't exactly the same thing in those days as they are today, with less online apps, but in a way it was also more obsolete more quickly because hardware moved quickly: you could have a 233Mhz to 300Mhz 1998 G3, but the new 2003 Powerbook G4s were clocked at 867Mhz-1.25Ghz - nearly 4x across the board. I get more usage out of 5+ year old Macs now than I ever did in the past.