3 ms·

Gnome includes many of the OSX menus in its right hand panel. Also, it’s not really Gnome’s fault that linux doesn’t have as great metadata from apps to be able

by kaba0 3y ago

Gnome includes many of the OSX menus in its right hand panel. Also, it’s not really Gnome’s fault that linux doesn’t have as great metadata from apps to be able to display the apps’ menubars (unity could do it). > No, it is hidden by default, that is the point here. I do not want my UI to hide stuff from me. It is there to tell me stuff. If it doesn't tell me it is not doing its job. Tell me, or don't do it With all due respect, that is bullshit reasoning. Selectively displaying useful things is the whole point of UIs. Otherwise why would you roll up your window? Why do you have menus in the first place that hide their content until clicked? > > (Fitt’s law: the corner is basically infinite sized) > Which is why macOS puts the menus there. GNOME wastes this vital functionality That is no longer the corner, so it doesn’t benefit from this law at all. The super key is the same as the windows, or the mac command key. Also often called Meta. You can achieve the same through the UI. Keyboard is often said to be for power users because they are not self-documenting. What’s the problem here exactly? Is alt+f4 written over the screen? Or ctrl+c? Especially that the same behavior is expected from the windows start menu. > Is this a community project or an autocracy? It’s a community for its users. You clearly don’t use it nor contribute to it either by work or financially, so it is not really fair to ask someone else to work for you specifically.. > GNOME sucks at multiscreen Literally every OS and distro suck at it. Nonetheless, I feel you are reasoning from a very biased point, so I don’t think it is as fruitful a discussion.

lproven 3y ago
> Gnome includes many of the OSX menus in its right hand panel. It used to. Now they are all collapsed into a single drop-down thing. (Which is not a panel, BTW. A panel is a toolbar that is permanently attached to the edge of a window or screen.) Why? Who decided this? Who got to vote on it? What is the benefit? I used to use an addon called "Extend Panel Menu" to split these into much more useful separate controls: https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1201/extend-panel-menu/ https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1201/extend-panel-men... Of course, GNOME broke it in a later release. This is why no amount of extensions are an answer: they break. Extensions do not work from one release of GNOME to another, and when they fail, the whole desktop often fails. > Also, it’s not really Gnome’s fault that linux doesn’t have as great metadata from apps to be able to display the apps’ menubars (unity could do it). False. Gtk exposes this; Unity didn't have stored metadata on lots of apps, it just displayed the existing controls' contents somewhere else. If you run brand new Gtk apps on Unity today, they get panel menus. This was not some clever hack. Unity is still around: https://unityd.org/ https://unityd.org/ The distro is back again: https://ubuntuunity.org/ https://ubuntuunity.org/ Brand new apps, like Waterfox, integrate with it fine although they did not exist when it was written. https://www.waterfox.net/ https://www.waterfox.net/ > With all due respect, that is bullshit reasoning. Selectively displaying useful things is the whole point of UIs. I disagree. 1. I want to choose what is shown or not. In order to choose, I have to be able to see it. 2. In other words, it needs to be there at first, and then I can choose whether I want to show it or not. If I can't see it in the first place, then how am I to know it's there? 3. It's the users' choice what is shown or not. It is not up to the developer to say "they don't need to see this and I'm going to hide it away." Any piece of software that does that is user hostile. > Otherwise why would you roll up your window? Again: it's my choice. I get to choose. It's my computer. They are my windows. I choose if they are shown or not. That is the point of free software: Choice. GNOME says it's free, but it takes choices away from me. I object to that. > Why do you have menus in the first place that hide their content until clicked? To save space for my document. You can't show everything all the time: that is why you leave it up to the user to choose what they show and when. (Incidentally, this is also why in my opinion the Microsoft ribbon based fluent interface fails. It tries to show far too much all at once, and the result is that it wastes a huge amount of screen space, and is actually more difficult to hunt through for what I need when I need it.) > That is no longer the corner, so it doesn’t benefit from this law at all. False. Fitt's law is about target size. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law#Implications_for_UI_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law#Implications_for... It is not about corners. It is about edges too. By the way I do have a clue about this stuff... for example here is a screenshot of a piece of software which I designed about a dozen years which makes use of Fitt's Law. https://twitter.com/SimplicityComps/status/540858633974972416 https://twitter.com/SimplicityComps/status/54085863397497241... > The super key is the same as the windows, or the mac command key. So, yes, but those environments don't suddenly change your entire screen. > Also often called Meta. That is a different key. Meta and super are not interchangeable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_key_(keyboard_button) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_key_(keyboard_button) > What’s the problem here exactly? Is alt+f4 written over the screen? Or ctrl+c? Especially that the same behavior is expected from the windows start menu. The problem here, as I'm attempting to spell out, is that there were existing conventions for this stuff, and GNOME does not respect them. > It’s a community for its users. You clearly don’t use it nor contribute to it either by work or financially, so it is not really fair to ask someone else to work for you specifically.. No. What I do is, I write about it for a living. I analyse this stuff, I draw comparisons, I point out weaknesses and strengths. That's my job. In my professional capacity, the GNOME foundation invited me to its GUADEC conference about six or seven years back. I asked a lot of awkward and difficult questions, because that's my job, and I didn't get invited back. > Literally every OS and distro suck at it. False. For example, using most other interfaces, such as XFCE, I can treat a multiscreen desktop as one big space. I can have one panel at the far left, and one on the far right, of the entire multi-monitor desktop. But GNOME doesn't let me do that. Why not? > Nonetheless, I feel you are reasoning from a very biased point Because I disagree with you, you think that I'm biased? Do you think that everyone who disagrees with you is biased? Have you considered that perhaps I have opinions, and can draw upon years of knowledge and experience, and make reasoned arguments based on evidence, and that is not the same thing as being biased? > I don’t think it is as fruitful a discussion. So because I can counter your arguments with examples and reasoning, you don't think that it's fruitful discussion? Personally, I think that the arguments where people can defend their points, and produce evidence to back them up, are the most fruitful kind. Don't you?
- kaba0 3y ago
  > Because I disagree with you, you think that I'm biased Not because we disagree, because you are talking out of emotion, while I am not. Also, many of your supposed arguments/evidences are just hand-wavy emotional statements. I’m fine with disagreeing with someone, or even if someone can change my mind, but I don’t see it happening here, and mind you, I simply like Gnome’s UX more or less, but not to a degree where I would get blinded by it.
  - lproven 3y ago
    "I like GNOME so my arguments are reasonable. You do not, so yours are driven by emotion."
    - kaba0 3y ago
      No, I like Gnome, period. That’s a subjective fact. My arguments are reasonable. That’s true, but has no relation to the former. You do not like Gnome. That’s completely fair, subjective opinion - though you seem to be actively hating it, which is I believe way too strong of an emotion to feel, but you do you. Your arguments are not logical, and don’t conclude what you say they do. That’s a fact. Just look at the bullshit you wrote about menus and how they are good, while what gnome does is bad — menus also don’t show you what they hide! They don’t start out opened, like come on! They are exactly analogous to what gnome does with the task bar - you just have been using one for decades, and the other is new. But then say that you don’t like new things — completely fair, and feel free to use xfce or whatever! People really dislike change, being a designer is not a kind job, no matter how objectively good your work is. But let’s not post-facto “reason” yourself into that position, because that’s just made up bullshit brains are very good at — we like to build up a reasoning from the emotional conclusion backwards, and not the correct way.

by kaba0 3y ago

lproven 3y ago

> Gnome includes many of the OSX menus in its right hand panel. It used to. Now they are all collapsed into a single drop-down thing. (Which is not a panel, BTW. A panel is a toolbar that is permanently attached to the edge of a window or screen.) Why? Who decided this? Who got to vote on it? What is the benefit? I used to use an addon called "Extend Panel Menu" to split these into much more useful separate controls: https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1201/extend-panel-menu/ https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1201/extend-panel-men... Of course, GNOME broke it in a later release. This is why no amount of extensions are an answer: they break. Extensions do not work from one release of GNOME to another, and when they fail, the whole desktop often fails. > Also, it’s not really Gnome’s fault that linux doesn’t have as great metadata from apps to be able to display the apps’ menubars (unity could do it). False. Gtk exposes this; Unity didn't have stored metadata on lots of apps, it just displayed the existing controls' contents somewhere else. If you run brand new Gtk apps on Unity today, they get panel menus. This was not some clever hack. Unity is still around: https://unityd.org/ https://unityd.org/ The distro is back again: https://ubuntuunity.org/ https://ubuntuunity.org/ Brand new apps, like Waterfox, integrate with it fine although they did not exist when it was written. https://www.waterfox.net/ https://www.waterfox.net/ > With all due respect, that is bullshit reasoning. Selectively displaying useful things is the whole point of UIs. I disagree. 1. I want to choose what is shown or not. In order to choose, I have to be able to see it. 2. In other words, it needs to be there at first, and then I can choose whether I want to show it or not. If I can't see it in the first place, then how am I to know it's there? 3. It's the users' choice what is shown or not. It is not up to the developer to say "they don't need to see this and I'm going to hide it away." Any piece of software that does that is user hostile. > Otherwise why would you roll up your window? Again: it's my choice. I get to choose. It's my computer. They are my windows. I choose if they are shown or not. That is the point of free software: Choice. GNOME says it's free, but it takes choices away from me. I object to that. > Why do you have menus in the first place that hide their content until clicked? To save space for my document. You can't show everything all the time: that is why you leave it up to the user to choose what they show and when. (Incidentally, this is also why in my opinion the Microsoft ribbon based fluent interface fails. It tries to show far too much all at once, and the result is that it wastes a huge amount of screen space, and is actually more difficult to hunt through for what I need when I need it.) > That is no longer the corner, so it doesn’t benefit from this law at all. False. Fitt's law is about target size. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law#Implications_for_UI_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law#Implications_for... It is not about corners. It is about edges too. By the way I do have a clue about this stuff... for example here is a screenshot of a piece of software which I designed about a dozen years which makes use of Fitt's Law. https://twitter.com/SimplicityComps/status/540858633974972416 https://twitter.com/SimplicityComps/status/54085863397497241... > The super key is the same as the windows, or the mac command key. So, yes, but those environments don't suddenly change your entire screen. > Also often called Meta. That is a different key. Meta and super are not interchangeable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_key_(keyboard_button) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_key_(keyboard_button) > What’s the problem here exactly? Is alt+f4 written over the screen? Or ctrl+c? Especially that the same behavior is expected from the windows start menu. The problem here, as I'm attempting to spell out, is that there were existing conventions for this stuff, and GNOME does not respect them. > It’s a community for its users. You clearly don’t use it nor contribute to it either by work or financially, so it is not really fair to ask someone else to work for you specifically.. No. What I do is, I write about it for a living. I analyse this stuff, I draw comparisons, I point out weaknesses and strengths. That's my job. In my professional capacity, the GNOME foundation invited me to its GUADEC conference about six or seven years back. I asked a lot of awkward and difficult questions, because that's my job, and I didn't get invited back. > Literally every OS and distro suck at it. False. For example, using most other interfaces, such as XFCE, I can treat a multiscreen desktop as one big space. I can have one panel at the far left, and one on the far right, of the entire multi-monitor desktop. But GNOME doesn't let me do that. Why not? > Nonetheless, I feel you are reasoning from a very biased point Because I disagree with you, you think that I'm biased? Do you think that everyone who disagrees with you is biased? Have you considered that perhaps I have opinions, and can draw upon years of knowledge and experience, and make reasoned arguments based on evidence, and that is not the same thing as being biased? > I don’t think it is as fruitful a discussion. So because I can counter your arguments with examples and reasoning, you don't think that it's fruitful discussion? Personally, I think that the arguments where people can defend their points, and produce evidence to back them up, are the most fruitful kind. Don't you?

kaba0 3y ago
> Because I disagree with you, you think that I'm biased Not because we disagree, because you are talking out of emotion, while I am not. Also, many of your supposed arguments/evidences are just hand-wavy emotional statements. I’m fine with disagreeing with someone, or even if someone can change my mind, but I don’t see it happening here, and mind you, I simply like Gnome’s UX more or less, but not to a degree where I would get blinded by it.
- lproven 3y ago
  "I like GNOME so my arguments are reasonable. You do not, so yours are driven by emotion."
  - kaba0 3y ago
    No, I like Gnome, period. That’s a subjective fact. My arguments are reasonable. That’s true, but has no relation to the former. You do not like Gnome. That’s completely fair, subjective opinion - though you seem to be actively hating it, which is I believe way too strong of an emotion to feel, but you do you. Your arguments are not logical, and don’t conclude what you say they do. That’s a fact. Just look at the bullshit you wrote about menus and how they are good, while what gnome does is bad — menus also don’t show you what they hide! They don’t start out opened, like come on! They are exactly analogous to what gnome does with the task bar - you just have been using one for decades, and the other is new. But then say that you don’t like new things — completely fair, and feel free to use xfce or whatever! People really dislike change, being a designer is not a kind job, no matter how objectively good your work is. But let’s not post-facto “reason” yourself into that position, because that’s just made up bullshit brains are very good at — we like to build up a reasoning from the emotional conclusion backwards, and not the correct way.