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How substantial? I don't think most people really understand the economics of being Canadian right now compared to the US. Right off the top you're earning CAD

How substantial? I don't think most people really understand the economics of being Canadian right now compared to the US. Right off the top you're earning CAD instead of USD, so with the current exchange rate that's a ~25% reduction in purchasing power. On top of that, it's a smaller country, with fewer large and wealthy industries. Salaries are not only CAD but also the actual dollar numbers tend to be smaller. EG I've seen listings for roles in the States offering 200k USD, but similar roles in Canada offer 120k CAD, which is less than 100k USD. That's a "pretty substantial" pay cut if you want it. It's also not like they make up for lower salaries with other perks like super high vacation time or anything either. Then you're living in a country where we have some of the most expensive real estate in the world in Toronto and Vancouver, which has effects in other markets as well. Also everything is just more expensive here, with the exception of Health Care I suppose. Groceries are absurdly expensive right now, but even when they were cheaper they weren't anywhere near as cheap as my friends pay in the US. The cheapest pound of butter you can find is $6.50 CAD right now. Same with Gas for your car, insurance, etc. All of the tech we buy is more expensive too, and not just "cost of exchange rate", it's always just higher. Don't get me wrong, I am happy here and in a lot of ways I am glad I chose to stay rather than chasing higher salaries in the States. I'm just trying to illustrate that there are definitely struggles here too and it will very likely be a very substantial pay cut to move here and get a job here. More substantial than you probably think. tl;dr: It's very expensive to live here in a lot of ways, our salaries don't really compete in a numerical way even before factoring in exchange rate.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
Butter prices are not a good representative of Canadian grocery prices. Canada has a really stupid milk quota system making milk, butter & cheese more expensive than elsewhere. But most other groceries are cheaper in Canada than in the US. For example, the average cost of a loaf of bread in Canada is CAD3.50, in the US it's USD3.50, 33% more expensive. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... Most things are cheaper in Canada than in the US, mostly because the average wage is cheaper in Canada than the US. But the things that are more expensive are the biggies, like rent & taxes.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  > But most other groceries are cheaper in Canada than in the US. For example, the average cost of a loaf of bread in Canada is CAD3.50, in the US it's USD3.50, 33% more expensive. I suspect this does not tell the whole story. Sticker price is one thing but how often does stuff go on on sale, what volume of coupons and other savings are readily available? Maybe I'm completely off base here, but I've discussed this quite a bit with my friends who live in the states and overall they pay way less than I do for very similar items. And it's not some extreme couponing thing, it's just "these are buy one get one all the time", which is a rare occurrence here.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    It's likely that numbeo gets their data from the official inflation basket sources, and those baskets sample transactions to get the prices that people actually pay, rather than sticker prices.
    - tyrfing 3y ago
      BLS data states $1.95 for a loaf of bread. https://www.bls.gov/charts/consumer-price-index/consumer-price-index-average-price-data.htm https://www.bls.gov/charts/consumer-price-index/consumer-pri...
      - FalconSensei 3y ago
        I live in downtown Vancouver, and at the expensive market downstairs in my building, it's about CAD$2.50? Also... seems quite some people comparing quality of food, and usually US ends up losing. For bread and even kit kats
mattkrause 3y ago
Counterpoint from an American working at an academic research job in Montreal. The gross salary is indeed very low compared to US offers--moving to DC would have increased my gross salary by >2.5x. However, add in various public services. I pay a few hundred dollars a year total for my family's insurance and medical care and there's little danger of this suddenly changing. Childcare is literally 10x cheaper---and that's after very generous parental leave (50+ weeks). Quebec has fairly strong protections for tenants, so the rent is rising but not wildly. The city is very walkable with solid mass transit, so I can walk, bike, or bus to most places, insulating me from gas prices. Once you start trying to 'buy back' a similar quality of life in a big American city, the salary gap is smaller than you'd think. We're interested in moving back for other reasons (closer to family, more exciting jobs, etc) but the economic case, butter aside, is not wildly compelling at non-SV salaries.
- version_five 3y ago
  If it works for you, cool. I live in Montreal and I don't see those numbers though. Healthcare is free but Quebec also has horrible healthcare (they seem ok for pregnancy though). And your employer would cover that in the US anyway. Rent has historically been reasonable but is quickly getting just as bad as other Canadian cities, and there's no availability. I think we pay $60 / day for daycare, which gets subsidized down to ~$30 ish. You paid $300 in the US? There is subsidized daycare buy only if you're willing to wait forever. Parental leave is only pays you 50k a year or so out of your employment insurance. I agree that driving in Montreal is so horrible that I don't use the car unless I absolutely have to. Some would consider that a positive, I don't. There are some good sides to Montreal in particular compared to other Canadian cities and US cities, but it's still not the land of milk and honey, and you still sacrifice a lot of money for it.
  - mattkrause 3y ago
    I waited forever for a family doctor, but all of our other experiences have been decent, especially once you're in the system. "Covered" in the US also rarely means 100% coverage: between copays, deductibles, and just general run-you-around-until-you-give-up nonsense, you usually end up paying something. Daycare for us is about $15/day (calculator here: http://www.budget.finances.gouv.qc.ca/budget/outils/garde-net-en.asp http://www.budget.finances.gouv.qc.ca/budget/outils/garde-ne...). Some of the prices we got for DC in 2021 were over $2500/kid-month and they've only gone up, so $150/day is indeed in the ballpark. Driving? Chacun à son goût. I found driving here better than DC or Boston, but...yeah, I'm glad I don't do it. I agree that it's not a land of milk and honey--but nowhere else is either.
bovermyer 3y ago
The minimum I would accept is $100k CAD. I currently make about $170k USD ($225k CAD), so that's a pretty steep drop that I'm willing to deal with.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  That's fair, just be aware that it's not just a salary drop, it's likely higher income taxes (depending where you're from) and expenses too. Canada has some of the highest telecom prices in the world for instance. There's still a lot to like about Canada. I grew up here and didn't leave, so I'm not saying don't come here. Just making sure you don't get here and are shocked that not only do you make way less, what you do make doesn't buy as much either.
- dleslie 3y ago
  After Federal and Provincial income tax, EI and CPP premiums, your net pay at 100k CAD would be 68k in Qc, 75k in BC, and 74k in ON or AB. In BC and ON, you'd expect to spend 30k on rent; in AB and QC it'll be more like 21k. So after rent and taxes, BC is 45k, ON is 44k, QC is 47k, and AB is 53k. Roughly. Now you've got to pay for food, utilities, and so forth. That's probably another 30k. It's easy to spend 2500 CAD/mo on just food, gas, electrical, insurance, utilities and so on. Everything adds up fast. So really, after all is said and done, you're working full time for 15k to 20k CAD a year; or 11k to 15k USD.
  - amrocha 3y ago
    Your numbers are way off >30K on rent Not unless you're living in luxury towers in rich areas. A 1 bedroom or a studio will rarely go above 2K, even in Vancouver or Toronto. >2500 on food If you're cooking, and not being frugal at all, you're spending 500 per month at most. >gas Canadian cities are walkable and have public transit, you don't need a car. If you do need a car where you live, then you're likely saving on rent. >electrical Electricity is dirt cheap in Canada. Never paid more than 60$ even in winter. Other utilities are similar to the US, that'll add up to 200-300 dollars. >insurance Not a thing. Welcome to modern society, baby. I'm sure you can spend that much money if you want to, but that's a choice to live a certain lifestyle. This lifestyle is not necessary. My first job in Canada I made 53K, 37K after taxes. I lived a normal life, studio downtown, going on vacations, drinking and eating out, and still managed to save 13000 dollars in a single year. Later I got a raises to 80K, 120K, and eventually 250K, but my (again, definitely not frugal!) lifestyle never cost me more than 25 - 30K per year.
dukeyukey 3y ago
> Right off the top you're earning CAD instead of USD, so with the current exchange rate that's a ~25% reduction in purchasing power. Uh, those are two different currencies, and Canada generally has a lower cost of living than the US. I don't see why the Canadian dollar being priced weaker than the US dollar would come into this.
- theflyinghorse 3y ago
  Because the laptop/cellphone/tv you buy is priced in USD and then converted to CAD. Take a look at Macbook prices in Canada and weep for us. Canada imports most products, and so we pay a hefty price for weaker currency
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    Importing doesn't inherently make something more expensive, least not between countries with extensive free-trade agreements. Like, if you compare US vs UK MacBook prices the UK looks way more expensive, but after accounting for VAT they're basically the same.
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      If I go compare prices for luxury electronics like game consoles, phones, computer parts, laptops, and literally anything else, the cost of the item is always much more in Canadian stores than American stores, and it's always more than exchange rate would explain. And that's before taxes. And American stores will not ship those sorts of items to Canada.
      - dukeyukey 3y ago
        I can't talk directly about the Canadian market, but I can tell you that in the UK, once taxes are accounted for the prices are near-identical, and we don't even have a US free trade agreement.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

Butter prices are not a good representative of Canadian grocery prices. Canada has a really stupid milk quota system making milk, butter & cheese more expensive than elsewhere. But most other groceries are cheaper in Canada than in the US. For example, the average cost of a loaf of bread in Canada is CAD3.50, in the US it's USD3.50, 33% more expensive. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... Most things are cheaper in Canada than in the US, mostly because the average wage is cheaper in Canada than the US. But the things that are more expensive are the biggies, like rent & taxes.

bluefirebrand 3y ago
> But most other groceries are cheaper in Canada than in the US. For example, the average cost of a loaf of bread in Canada is CAD3.50, in the US it's USD3.50, 33% more expensive. I suspect this does not tell the whole story. Sticker price is one thing but how often does stuff go on on sale, what volume of coupons and other savings are readily available? Maybe I'm completely off base here, but I've discussed this quite a bit with my friends who live in the states and overall they pay way less than I do for very similar items. And it's not some extreme couponing thing, it's just "these are buy one get one all the time", which is a rare occurrence here.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  It's likely that numbeo gets their data from the official inflation basket sources, and those baskets sample transactions to get the prices that people actually pay, rather than sticker prices.
  - tyrfing 3y ago
    BLS data states $1.95 for a loaf of bread. https://www.bls.gov/charts/consumer-price-index/consumer-price-index-average-price-data.htm https://www.bls.gov/charts/consumer-price-index/consumer-pri...
    - FalconSensei 3y ago
      I live in downtown Vancouver, and at the expensive market downstairs in my building, it's about CAD$2.50? Also... seems quite some people comparing quality of food, and usually US ends up losing. For bread and even kit kats

mattkrause 3y ago

Counterpoint from an American working at an academic research job in Montreal. The gross salary is indeed very low compared to US offers--moving to DC would have increased my gross salary by >2.5x. However, add in various public services. I pay a few hundred dollars a year total for my family's insurance and medical care and there's little danger of this suddenly changing. Childcare is literally 10x cheaper---and that's after very generous parental leave (50+ weeks). Quebec has fairly strong protections for tenants, so the rent is rising but not wildly. The city is very walkable with solid mass transit, so I can walk, bike, or bus to most places, insulating me from gas prices. Once you start trying to 'buy back' a similar quality of life in a big American city, the salary gap is smaller than you'd think. We're interested in moving back for other reasons (closer to family, more exciting jobs, etc) but the economic case, butter aside, is not wildly compelling at non-SV salaries.

version_five 3y ago
If it works for you, cool. I live in Montreal and I don't see those numbers though. Healthcare is free but Quebec also has horrible healthcare (they seem ok for pregnancy though). And your employer would cover that in the US anyway. Rent has historically been reasonable but is quickly getting just as bad as other Canadian cities, and there's no availability. I think we pay $60 / day for daycare, which gets subsidized down to ~$30 ish. You paid $300 in the US? There is subsidized daycare buy only if you're willing to wait forever. Parental leave is only pays you 50k a year or so out of your employment insurance. I agree that driving in Montreal is so horrible that I don't use the car unless I absolutely have to. Some would consider that a positive, I don't. There are some good sides to Montreal in particular compared to other Canadian cities and US cities, but it's still not the land of milk and honey, and you still sacrifice a lot of money for it.
- mattkrause 3y ago
  I waited forever for a family doctor, but all of our other experiences have been decent, especially once you're in the system. "Covered" in the US also rarely means 100% coverage: between copays, deductibles, and just general run-you-around-until-you-give-up nonsense, you usually end up paying something. Daycare for us is about $15/day (calculator here: http://www.budget.finances.gouv.qc.ca/budget/outils/garde-net-en.asp http://www.budget.finances.gouv.qc.ca/budget/outils/garde-ne...). Some of the prices we got for DC in 2021 were over $2500/kid-month and they've only gone up, so $150/day is indeed in the ballpark. Driving? Chacun à son goût. I found driving here better than DC or Boston, but...yeah, I'm glad I don't do it. I agree that it's not a land of milk and honey--but nowhere else is either.

bovermyer 3y ago

The minimum I would accept is $100k CAD. I currently make about $170k USD ($225k CAD), so that's a pretty steep drop that I'm willing to deal with.

bluefirebrand 3y ago
That's fair, just be aware that it's not just a salary drop, it's likely higher income taxes (depending where you're from) and expenses too. Canada has some of the highest telecom prices in the world for instance. There's still a lot to like about Canada. I grew up here and didn't leave, so I'm not saying don't come here. Just making sure you don't get here and are shocked that not only do you make way less, what you do make doesn't buy as much either.
dleslie 3y ago
After Federal and Provincial income tax, EI and CPP premiums, your net pay at 100k CAD would be 68k in Qc, 75k in BC, and 74k in ON or AB. In BC and ON, you'd expect to spend 30k on rent; in AB and QC it'll be more like 21k. So after rent and taxes, BC is 45k, ON is 44k, QC is 47k, and AB is 53k. Roughly. Now you've got to pay for food, utilities, and so forth. That's probably another 30k. It's easy to spend 2500 CAD/mo on just food, gas, electrical, insurance, utilities and so on. Everything adds up fast. So really, after all is said and done, you're working full time for 15k to 20k CAD a year; or 11k to 15k USD.
- amrocha 3y ago
  Your numbers are way off >30K on rent Not unless you're living in luxury towers in rich areas. A 1 bedroom or a studio will rarely go above 2K, even in Vancouver or Toronto. >2500 on food If you're cooking, and not being frugal at all, you're spending 500 per month at most. >gas Canadian cities are walkable and have public transit, you don't need a car. If you do need a car where you live, then you're likely saving on rent. >electrical Electricity is dirt cheap in Canada. Never paid more than 60$ even in winter. Other utilities are similar to the US, that'll add up to 200-300 dollars. >insurance Not a thing. Welcome to modern society, baby. I'm sure you can spend that much money if you want to, but that's a choice to live a certain lifestyle. This lifestyle is not necessary. My first job in Canada I made 53K, 37K after taxes. I lived a normal life, studio downtown, going on vacations, drinking and eating out, and still managed to save 13000 dollars in a single year. Later I got a raises to 80K, 120K, and eventually 250K, but my (again, definitely not frugal!) lifestyle never cost me more than 25 - 30K per year.

dukeyukey 3y ago

> Right off the top you're earning CAD instead of USD, so with the current exchange rate that's a ~25% reduction in purchasing power. Uh, those are two different currencies, and Canada generally has a lower cost of living than the US. I don't see why the Canadian dollar being priced weaker than the US dollar would come into this.

theflyinghorse 3y ago
Because the laptop/cellphone/tv you buy is priced in USD and then converted to CAD. Take a look at Macbook prices in Canada and weep for us. Canada imports most products, and so we pay a hefty price for weaker currency
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  Importing doesn't inherently make something more expensive, least not between countries with extensive free-trade agreements. Like, if you compare US vs UK MacBook prices the UK looks way more expensive, but after accounting for VAT they're basically the same.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    If I go compare prices for luxury electronics like game consoles, phones, computer parts, laptops, and literally anything else, the cost of the item is always much more in Canadian stores than American stores, and it's always more than exchange rate would explain. And that's before taxes. And American stores will not ship those sorts of items to Canada.
    - dukeyukey 3y ago
      I can't talk directly about the Canadian market, but I can tell you that in the UK, once taxes are accounted for the prices are near-identical, and we don't even have a US free trade agreement.