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It's not as simple. My country (UK) has skilled workers visa that has wage requirement set often at half the market rate for given job. For instance, company ca

It's not as simple. My country (UK) has skilled workers visa that has wage requirement set often at half the market rate for given job. For instance, company can pay a software developer as little as £35k. Given that it is much more expensive to gain skill when you are a native, the government somewhat pulled the rug from underneath the locals who spend a lot of money to go to uni etc and were hoping to have a decent return on their investment in education. This also creates disincentive for locals to learn these in-demand skills. If you combine this with the fact that companies can rent out these cheap workers at £500 or more a day, while avoiding paying taxes it is a poor deal that only benefits big corporations.

iamflimflam1 3y ago
I'm sorry, but have you really honestly been impacted by this? Have you applied for a job and been told that they don't want you because there's a cheaper immigrant available? Have you had a job and been replaced by an immigrant?
- mikece 3y ago
  Yes: his wage is artificially depressed by "market conditions" due to the willingness of foreign workers to make less. This is especially harmful to entry level developers who haven't had time to build up a niche/profitable specialty.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    I do not see this "market conditions" in the UK.
- varispeed 3y ago
  Yes. I see fewer offers coming up and at lower rates. I also saw a few jobs of colleagues not renewed and replaced by immigrant teams supplied by a big consultancy. If this trend continues, I'll be looking at retiring early or moving overseas.
red_admiral 3y ago
I mostly agree but 'half the market rate' glosses over a lot of things. For example, according to WhatUni [1], the average computer science graduate salary after leaving uni is £27K. Even after a year or two of pay increments, the average (median? not sure) CS graduate could be earning less than the £35K threshold. It's not just the "unis" that deserve double quotes with this kind of salary range: Exeter is Russell Group, but the same site says their graduates have a £28K average starting salary. Staying with Exeter, their 2023 pay scales [2] have postdocs starting at £31K, and lecturers in the £40K-50K range; by the time you're earning double of £35k, you're well into associate professor territory. Sure, you won't get a good senior developer for £35K. But if your business model is lots of juniors and high churn, you'll get plenty of people in that range. [1] https://www.whatuni.com/degrees/computer-science-bsc-hons/university-of-exeter/cd/54938676/3740/ https://www.whatuni.com/degrees/computer-science-bsc-hons/un... [2] https://www.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/humanresources/documents/payroll/Grading_structure_Feb2023.pdf https://www.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/humanresou...
- varispeed 3y ago
  Now consider that why would company hire a CS graduate for £27k, if they could get a seasoned developer who will be happy to work for £35k and get the foot in the door? Also see that the threshold for a web developer is only £26.8k.
stickyricky 3y ago
Please won't you think about the economic utility of this arrangement? There's more to life than "concern" and "care" for your relatives, neighbors, and the "next generation". What about money? We can make _more_ money this way. I know _you're_ not making more money but have you considered that you just didn't work hard enough? Maybe if you immigrated to Bangladesh you could re-tread tires while you studied computer science. One day you might earn yourself an H1-B visa in the UK. I hear that's a nice country.
citrin_ru 3y ago
£35k is the minimum, average salary for skilled visa holders AFIK is much higher (there should be some stats but cannot find now).
devnullbrain 3y ago
>Given that it is much more expensive to gain skill when you are a native We can go abroad to study it for much cheaper. Alternatively, foreign nationals can come to study here: they'll pay twice as much as us to do so. Our higher education is subsidised. Likewise, we don't have to work in this country. Immigration is not a one-way system. The number of companies that can sponsor a Tier 2 Visa is limited. Those that do have to pay £1000pa for each individual they sponsor. The individual themselves will have to pay >£600pa to subsidise the NHS for you and me. We no longer have the Resident Labour Market Test - it was abolished because unemployment rates were extremely low - but most people who have passed the 2 year curfew to be allowed to take an employer to tribunal are in a job where their employers first had to prove the job couldn't be filled by local talent. Perhaps the government should update the SOC code for software engineers to be higher. They determine the going rate to hire into these 'skilled occupation' roles.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody starts suggesting this. Since the rulers have determined that it is better to hire foreigners as it is so expensive to educate locals, then it shouldn't take long before a business genius comes up with the idea to send all native children to these foreign countries at birth, to be educated for cheap and then sent back to work. I mean, it only makes business sense, doesn't it?
- varispeed 3y ago
  > We can go abroad to study it for much cheaper. Right, someone will go abroad to study cheaper only to come back and get a poor wage. Sure. > The number of companies that can sponsor a Tier 2 Visa is limited. Those that do have to pay £1000pa for each individual they sponsor. Tier 2 visa has been replaced by Skilled worker visa and there is over 80,000 companies registered as sponsors. The £1,000 pa is nothing if you take into account how much profit company can make on such worker.

iamflimflam1 3y ago

I'm sorry, but have you really honestly been impacted by this? Have you applied for a job and been told that they don't want you because there's a cheaper immigrant available? Have you had a job and been replaced by an immigrant?

mikece 3y ago
Yes: his wage is artificially depressed by "market conditions" due to the willingness of foreign workers to make less. This is especially harmful to entry level developers who haven't had time to build up a niche/profitable specialty.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  I do not see this "market conditions" in the UK.
varispeed 3y ago
Yes. I see fewer offers coming up and at lower rates. I also saw a few jobs of colleagues not renewed and replaced by immigrant teams supplied by a big consultancy. If this trend continues, I'll be looking at retiring early or moving overseas.

red_admiral 3y ago

I mostly agree but 'half the market rate' glosses over a lot of things. For example, according to WhatUni [1], the average computer science graduate salary after leaving uni is £27K. Even after a year or two of pay increments, the average (median? not sure) CS graduate could be earning less than the £35K threshold. It's not just the "unis" that deserve double quotes with this kind of salary range: Exeter is Russell Group, but the same site says their graduates have a £28K average starting salary. Staying with Exeter, their 2023 pay scales [2] have postdocs starting at £31K, and lecturers in the £40K-50K range; by the time you're earning double of £35k, you're well into associate professor territory. Sure, you won't get a good senior developer for £35K. But if your business model is lots of juniors and high churn, you'll get plenty of people in that range. [1] https://www.whatuni.com/degrees/computer-science-bsc-hons/university-of-exeter/cd/54938676/3740/ https://www.whatuni.com/degrees/computer-science-bsc-hons/un... [2] https://www.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/humanresources/documents/payroll/Grading_structure_Feb2023.pdf https://www.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/humanresou...

varispeed 3y ago
Now consider that why would company hire a CS graduate for £27k, if they could get a seasoned developer who will be happy to work for £35k and get the foot in the door? Also see that the threshold for a web developer is only £26.8k.

stickyricky 3y ago

Please won't you think about the economic utility of this arrangement? There's more to life than "concern" and "care" for your relatives, neighbors, and the "next generation". What about money? We can make _more_ money this way. I know _you're_ not making more money but have you considered that you just didn't work hard enough? Maybe if you immigrated to Bangladesh you could re-tread tires while you studied computer science. One day you might earn yourself an H1-B visa in the UK. I hear that's a nice country.

citrin_ru 3y ago

£35k is the minimum, average salary for skilled visa holders AFIK is much higher (there should be some stats but cannot find now).

devnullbrain 3y ago

>Given that it is much more expensive to gain skill when you are a native We can go abroad to study it for much cheaper. Alternatively, foreign nationals can come to study here: they'll pay twice as much as us to do so. Our higher education is subsidised. Likewise, we don't have to work in this country. Immigration is not a one-way system. The number of companies that can sponsor a Tier 2 Visa is limited. Those that do have to pay £1000pa for each individual they sponsor. The individual themselves will have to pay >£600pa to subsidise the NHS for you and me. We no longer have the Resident Labour Market Test - it was abolished because unemployment rates were extremely low - but most people who have passed the 2 year curfew to be allowed to take an employer to tribunal are in a job where their employers first had to prove the job couldn't be filled by local talent. Perhaps the government should update the SOC code for software engineers to be higher. They determine the going rate to hire into these 'skilled occupation' roles.

carlosjobim 3y ago
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody starts suggesting this. Since the rulers have determined that it is better to hire foreigners as it is so expensive to educate locals, then it shouldn't take long before a business genius comes up with the idea to send all native children to these foreign countries at birth, to be educated for cheap and then sent back to work. I mean, it only makes business sense, doesn't it?
varispeed 3y ago
> We can go abroad to study it for much cheaper. Right, someone will go abroad to study cheaper only to come back and get a poor wage. Sure. > The number of companies that can sponsor a Tier 2 Visa is limited. Those that do have to pay £1000pa for each individual they sponsor. Tier 2 visa has been replaced by Skilled worker visa and there is over 80,000 companies registered as sponsors. The £1,000 pa is nothing if you take into account how much profit company can make on such worker.