7 ms·

Canada is seeing record emigration of it's own citizens (amongst other reasons, it's less affordable, less opportunity and lower salaries than the US). Anyone

Canada is seeing record emigration of it's own citizens (amongst other reasons, it's less affordable, less opportunity and lower salaries than the US). Anyone with the option (meaning the top people) will ignore this and stay in the states. This kind of thing works to get people, but not the best or even necessarily "good" people (from a qualification perspective)

dkqmduems 3y ago
I think a good number return once they have kids...
mr90210 3y ago
The most qualified people are attracted by exciting challenges and excellent income.
- JustLurking2022 3y ago
  On an aggregate level, probably true, but I've run across plenty of highly talented people in smaller markets and at less exciting companies purely because it's where they wanted to be.
  - mr90210 3y ago
    Agreed. My comment was too absolutist.
bovermyer 3y ago
I dunno, I'm willing to take a pretty substantial pay cut to move to Canada from the USA. I like to think I'm fairly competent.
- LegitShady 3y ago
  I think you do not know how badly the housing gand healthcare crisis in Canada is right now. But you do you!
- gadflyinyoureye 3y ago
  Please say why? I thought about moving to Italy but taking a 40% income loss to taxes seems insane to me. Canada is pretty much the same. I’d rather move to Georgia or Indiana.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - FalconSensei 3y ago
    You could also ask yourself about the quality and type of life you would have. Do you prefer your life in Indiana, or Italy? For me it's a no-brainer that it would be Italy. Not much interest on living in the US, unless I was a millionaire.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  Why haven't you?
  - bovermyer 3y ago
    I'm trying. The difficulty is in the Canadian immigration bureaucracy, not the availability of jobs. These changes announced yesterday will make it much easier for me.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  How substantial? I don't think most people really understand the economics of being Canadian right now compared to the US. Right off the top you're earning CAD instead of USD, so with the current exchange rate that's a ~25% reduction in purchasing power. On top of that, it's a smaller country, with fewer large and wealthy industries. Salaries are not only CAD but also the actual dollar numbers tend to be smaller. EG I've seen listings for roles in the States offering 200k USD, but similar roles in Canada offer 120k CAD, which is less than 100k USD. That's a "pretty substantial" pay cut if you want it. It's also not like they make up for lower salaries with other perks like super high vacation time or anything either. Then you're living in a country where we have some of the most expensive real estate in the world in Toronto and Vancouver, which has effects in other markets as well. Also everything is just more expensive here, with the exception of Health Care I suppose. Groceries are absurdly expensive right now, but even when they were cheaper they weren't anywhere near as cheap as my friends pay in the US. The cheapest pound of butter you can find is $6.50 CAD right now. Same with Gas for your car, insurance, etc. All of the tech we buy is more expensive too, and not just "cost of exchange rate", it's always just higher. Don't get me wrong, I am happy here and in a lot of ways I am glad I chose to stay rather than chasing higher salaries in the States. I'm just trying to illustrate that there are definitely struggles here too and it will very likely be a very substantial pay cut to move here and get a job here. More substantial than you probably think. tl;dr: It's very expensive to live here in a lot of ways, our salaries don't really compete in a numerical way even before factoring in exchange rate.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Butter prices are not a good representative of Canadian grocery prices. Canada has a really stupid milk quota system making milk, butter & cheese more expensive than elsewhere. But most other groceries are cheaper in Canada than in the US. For example, the average cost of a loaf of bread in Canada is CAD3.50, in the US it's USD3.50, 33% more expensive. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... Most things are cheaper in Canada than in the US, mostly because the average wage is cheaper in Canada than the US. But the things that are more expensive are the biggies, like rent & taxes.
- moneywoes 3y ago
  We’ll check out the express entry program you’ll be welcome However, I’d read up on the healthcare shortage and high housing costs first though
  - bovermyer 3y ago
    I'm already in the Express Entry system. My CRS score is much lower than that of a student or someone with work experience in Canada, though, so the odds of me getting a draw are very low. I'm already aware of the healthcare issues and the housing costs. I have a region picked out that mitigates some of that.
- RobertDeNiro 3y ago
  Keep in mind the COL in Canada is often higher too. So its pay cut + higher COL. Most Canadians can't afford to buy homes.
  - brewdad 3y ago
    Most Americans, who don't already own a home, can't afford to buy a home either.
- Fervicus 3y ago
  Why?
  - bovermyer 3y ago
    There are things I value more than money.
    - Fervicus 3y ago
      I am curious what those things are and why you think you'll get them in Canada and not in the US.
      - bovermyer 3y ago
        Fewer fascists, for one thing.
        Fervicus 3y ago
        Whatever you mean by "fascists", I can assure you there will be no shortage of them in Canada.
bentlegen 3y ago
Do you have any evidence suggesting record numbers? Canada's official numbers do show that Q3 2022 was a record high for emigration (16.5k -- Q3 2018 was 15.5k), but other recent quarters (Q4 2022, Q1 2023, etc) are still lower than prior years. And you have a significantly higher population now than back then.[1] [1] https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710004001&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.1&cubeTimeFrame.startMonth=01&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2018&cubeTimeFrame.endMonth=01&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2023&referencePeriods=20180101%2C20230101 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=171000...
- RobertDeNiro 3y ago
  I wonder how remote works factors into this. I know a few Canadians with US jobs that stayed here because the corporate policy now allows them to work remotely.
- dontwearitout 3y ago
  It's very bad for tech in particular. This is a bit dated, but ~84% of Waterloo grads jump ship to the US (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25911922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25911922). Put another way, it's a roll of the dice chance that a graduate stays in Canada.
  - bentlegen 3y ago
    That linked report says that 84% of Software Engineering Waterloo grads, from the class 2020, intended or desired to move to the US (it's unclear if they actually did -- the poll was completed June 2020).[1] A very important detail here is that Software Engineering is a specific specialization under the Engineering faculty. This figure does not include Computer Science graduates, for example, as that is a separate and much larger department. So, this is a poll of 87 students (out of ~107) of a very specific graduating class. To put this in perspective, the Computer Science department at Waterloo is 4,000 undergraduate students.[2] I'm not refuting that Canadian graduates often look to the US for better employment opportunities (full disclosure: I did that), but I think we owe ourselves to look at this topic objectively. [1] https://uw-se-2020-class-profile.github.io/profile.pdf https://uw-se-2020-class-profile.github.io/profile.pdf [2] https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/about/quick-facts https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/about/quick-facts
chollida1 3y ago
> Canada is seeing record emigration of it's own citizens (amongst other reasons, it's less affordable, less opportunity and lower salaries than the US). According to the numbers this is not true. What specific numbers can you show that backs up yoru point? https://www.statista.com/statistics/443066/number-of-emigrants-from-canada/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/443066/number-of-emigran...

dkqmduems 3y ago

I think a good number return once they have kids...

mr90210 3y ago

The most qualified people are attracted by exciting challenges and excellent income.

JustLurking2022 3y ago
On an aggregate level, probably true, but I've run across plenty of highly talented people in smaller markets and at less exciting companies purely because it's where they wanted to be.
- mr90210 3y ago
  Agreed. My comment was too absolutist.

bovermyer 3y ago

I dunno, I'm willing to take a pretty substantial pay cut to move to Canada from the USA. I like to think I'm fairly competent.

LegitShady 3y ago
I think you do not know how badly the housing gand healthcare crisis in Canada is right now. But you do you!
gadflyinyoureye 3y ago
Please say why? I thought about moving to Italy but taking a 40% income loss to taxes seems insane to me. Canada is pretty much the same. I’d rather move to Georgia or Indiana.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- FalconSensei 3y ago
  You could also ask yourself about the quality and type of life you would have. Do you prefer your life in Indiana, or Italy? For me it's a no-brainer that it would be Italy. Not much interest on living in the US, unless I was a millionaire.
xyzelement 3y ago
Why haven't you?
- bovermyer 3y ago
  I'm trying. The difficulty is in the Canadian immigration bureaucracy, not the availability of jobs. These changes announced yesterday will make it much easier for me.
bluefirebrand 3y ago
How substantial? I don't think most people really understand the economics of being Canadian right now compared to the US. Right off the top you're earning CAD instead of USD, so with the current exchange rate that's a ~25% reduction in purchasing power. On top of that, it's a smaller country, with fewer large and wealthy industries. Salaries are not only CAD but also the actual dollar numbers tend to be smaller. EG I've seen listings for roles in the States offering 200k USD, but similar roles in Canada offer 120k CAD, which is less than 100k USD. That's a "pretty substantial" pay cut if you want it. It's also not like they make up for lower salaries with other perks like super high vacation time or anything either. Then you're living in a country where we have some of the most expensive real estate in the world in Toronto and Vancouver, which has effects in other markets as well. Also everything is just more expensive here, with the exception of Health Care I suppose. Groceries are absurdly expensive right now, but even when they were cheaper they weren't anywhere near as cheap as my friends pay in the US. The cheapest pound of butter you can find is $6.50 CAD right now. Same with Gas for your car, insurance, etc. All of the tech we buy is more expensive too, and not just "cost of exchange rate", it's always just higher. Don't get me wrong, I am happy here and in a lot of ways I am glad I chose to stay rather than chasing higher salaries in the States. I'm just trying to illustrate that there are definitely struggles here too and it will very likely be a very substantial pay cut to move here and get a job here. More substantial than you probably think. tl;dr: It's very expensive to live here in a lot of ways, our salaries don't really compete in a numerical way even before factoring in exchange rate.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Butter prices are not a good representative of Canadian grocery prices. Canada has a really stupid milk quota system making milk, butter & cheese more expensive than elsewhere. But most other groceries are cheaper in Canada than in the US. For example, the average cost of a loaf of bread in Canada is CAD3.50, in the US it's USD3.50, 33% more expensive. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... Most things are cheaper in Canada than in the US, mostly because the average wage is cheaper in Canada than the US. But the things that are more expensive are the biggies, like rent & taxes.
moneywoes 3y ago
We’ll check out the express entry program you’ll be welcome However, I’d read up on the healthcare shortage and high housing costs first though
- bovermyer 3y ago
  I'm already in the Express Entry system. My CRS score is much lower than that of a student or someone with work experience in Canada, though, so the odds of me getting a draw are very low. I'm already aware of the healthcare issues and the housing costs. I have a region picked out that mitigates some of that.
RobertDeNiro 3y ago
Keep in mind the COL in Canada is often higher too. So its pay cut + higher COL. Most Canadians can't afford to buy homes.
- brewdad 3y ago
  Most Americans, who don't already own a home, can't afford to buy a home either.
Fervicus 3y ago
Why?
- bovermyer 3y ago
  There are things I value more than money.
  - Fervicus 3y ago
    I am curious what those things are and why you think you'll get them in Canada and not in the US.
    - bovermyer 3y ago
      Fewer fascists, for one thing.
      - Fervicus 3y ago
        Whatever you mean by "fascists", I can assure you there will be no shortage of them in Canada.

bentlegen 3y ago

Do you have any evidence suggesting record numbers? Canada's official numbers do show that Q3 2022 was a record high for emigration (16.5k -- Q3 2018 was 15.5k), but other recent quarters (Q4 2022, Q1 2023, etc) are still lower than prior years. And you have a significantly higher population now than back then.[1] [1] https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710004001&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.1&cubeTimeFrame.startMonth=01&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2018&cubeTimeFrame.endMonth=01&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2023&referencePeriods=20180101%2C20230101 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=171000...

RobertDeNiro 3y ago
I wonder how remote works factors into this. I know a few Canadians with US jobs that stayed here because the corporate policy now allows them to work remotely.
dontwearitout 3y ago
It's very bad for tech in particular. This is a bit dated, but ~84% of Waterloo grads jump ship to the US (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25911922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25911922). Put another way, it's a roll of the dice chance that a graduate stays in Canada.
- bentlegen 3y ago
  That linked report says that 84% of Software Engineering Waterloo grads, from the class 2020, intended or desired to move to the US (it's unclear if they actually did -- the poll was completed June 2020).[1] A very important detail here is that Software Engineering is a specific specialization under the Engineering faculty. This figure does not include Computer Science graduates, for example, as that is a separate and much larger department. So, this is a poll of 87 students (out of ~107) of a very specific graduating class. To put this in perspective, the Computer Science department at Waterloo is 4,000 undergraduate students.[2] I'm not refuting that Canadian graduates often look to the US for better employment opportunities (full disclosure: I did that), but I think we owe ourselves to look at this topic objectively. [1] https://uw-se-2020-class-profile.github.io/profile.pdf https://uw-se-2020-class-profile.github.io/profile.pdf [2] https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/about/quick-facts https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/about/quick-facts

chollida1 3y ago

> Canada is seeing record emigration of it's own citizens (amongst other reasons, it's less affordable, less opportunity and lower salaries than the US). According to the numbers this is not true. What specific numbers can you show that backs up yoru point? https://www.statista.com/statistics/443066/number-of-emigrants-from-canada/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/443066/number-of-emigran...