4 ms·

That is going to be interesting, but not in the positive sense of the world. A lot of tech workers affected by the rounds of layoffs last year are still strugg

That is going to be interesting, but not in the positive sense of the world. A lot of tech workers affected by the rounds of layoffs last year are still struggling to find other jobs, specially the most junior ones. I've been personally trying to help some friends and ex-coworkers and it is brutal out there. Right now there doesn't seem to be a lack of tech workers, at least not in Vancouver. Canada housing situation is also not that great and with no signs of improving. At first glance, it looks like those measures will only serve to devalue the tech salaries even more (already at a considerable discount over US ones) and make the housing situation even worse. I don't expect most people using the new visas will want to live in the countryside, specially considering if they come without a job lined up. The majority will likely want to come to Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal.

version_five 3y ago
> At first glance, it looks like those measures will only serve to devalue the tech salaries even more (already at a considerable discount over US ones) and make the housing situation even worse That's exactly the point, but they call it "addressing a skills shortage" and there is a huge entrenched interest in keeping the property bubble going higher and higher. Mortgage rates should be slaughtering house prices, more scarcity is the only way to keep them high.
- morkalork 3y ago
  Seems like people are waiting to sell because of the high rates instead of settling for less.
- tenpies 3y ago
  > there is a huge entrenched interest in keeping the property bubble going higher and higher. Just to paint the picture, in Canada: * Prime Minister Trudeau is a trust fund kind with rental income * Finance Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Freeland, has four mortgages * Housing Minister Hussen literally purchased another rental property recently * 1/3 of all Liberal MPs have rental income in their disclosures What Trudeau is doing to Canada is what my friends and I call the Slum Lord's Delight scenario: * Flood the country with people who will need housing, while offering them no warning of just how unaffordable things are. * Do absolutely nothing to increase housing supply. Add as many new taxes, fees, and regulation as you can to ensure new supply declines. * Do everything you can to allow younger Canadians and new immigrants to borrow more and pay more for housing. Your solution to affordability is helping them borrow more, not reducing prices. * If anyone complains about immigration, call them racist. * If anyone complains about housing, blame the provinces and municipalities (whichever level isn't Liberal). * If anyone thinks of protesting, go Trucker Protests / Tiananmen Square on them I would not be surprised if Trudeau achieves a China-esque market before he's eventually removed or self-exiles, meaning a market where people never actually own the land, but rather have long term rentals (under a different name) of the property from a State owned company or monopoly.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    You're leaving out the fact that the Conservative party is basically identical in structural composition and interests in keeping the housing market bloated. To the point where Pierre stands up in the HoC and goes after Trudeau for BoC rate increases... because his boomer constituency needs Number Go Up because that's their only retirement option after three decades of joint Liberal-Conservative policy. It's a pyramid scheme, and actually the Cons were even worse for it when they were in power federally, and a huge problem with Ontario right now is precisely the provincial Cons in Ontario. Same sauce, slightly different flavour.
    - version_five 3y ago
      Yes, that's true on most issues. Other than Trudeau's particular abhorrent personality, there is no fundamental difference between the liberals and conservatives on any substantive issue. They just have slightly different pork barrel projects and stupid tax credits.
      - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        It's western energy sector vs central banking and finance, same as it's been for decades :-(
hotpotamus 3y ago
If you have a surplus of workers and a deficit of housing, it would seem like a chance to re-skill the workforce into construction, wouldn't it? Instead of the blue-collar workers learning to code, maybe the tech workers can learn to weld? Or am I being ridiculous?
- hugocbp 3y ago
  That is what happens, at least locally and temporarily. Some of the people I know that have been laid off mid-2022 and end-2022 and still haven't found another tech job have been driving for Uber, delivering for Doordash, doing cleaning and basic construction jobs to get by. Those are completely different occupations, though, and appeal to people with probably different personalities. The Housing problem in Canada is complex and not easy to explain in short sentences, but I can basically assure you that lack of construction workers is not the main reason it exists.
- octacat 3y ago
  Reskill workforce into the bank workers ;) Constructing more means housing prices go down, which would piss off the banking sector and people who has several houses (or even at least one sometimes). It would piss off for sure people who has less than one house (i.e. already existing mortgage contracts).
- caskstrength 3y ago
  > If you have a surplus of workers and a deficit of housing, it would seem like a chance to re-skill the workforce into construction, wouldn't it? Instead of the blue-collar workers learning to code, maybe the tech workers can learn to weld? Or am I being ridiculous? I don't think that the lack of construction workers is the main reason for current crazy property prices in the western world.
RobertDeNiro 3y ago
Its an awful policy, and in the long run will harm Canadians more than anything.
preommr 3y ago
> Canada housing situation is also not that great and with no signs of improving. Real estate musical chairs is pretty much a central pillar of the Canadian economy. Like 1/5 people live in the GTA, and 1/59 workers in Toronto is a real estate agent. The numbers would be hilarious if they weren't so sad.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  A graphical representation of this poster's point: 50% of Canadians live below this line -- https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1600907559216390146?lang=en https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1600907559216390146?la...
dangerwill 3y ago
As of when I last checked in 2021, Seattle tech salaries are 10-20% higher compared to Vancouver with house prices being like 33% lower. I imagine this situation holds when you compare Toronto to Chicago or Montreal to Boston. Even if the Canadian government makes the bureaucracy simpler/less onerous/less evil as long as those fundamental conditions exist I don't expect to see a mass exodus to Canada.
- pcthrowaway 3y ago
  According to https://www.levels.fyi/2022/ https://www.levels.fyi/2022/ , Seattle salaries are nearly double what they are in Vancouver
  - dleslie 3y ago
    And if you go farther south, salaries are triple what they are in Vancouver. Or much more, if you're senior or specialized. A word of advice: if you have employable skills in tech simply avoid Canada; and if you must travel here, then work for Americans. They'll pay you much more than anyone local will even consider.
    - gloryjulio 3y ago
      Not sure about that. You don't get more pay in the bay area, you actually would be paid less because of the taxes. Seattle has faang level offices and their compensation numbers is a bit lower than their counter parts in bay area. But u get lower cost of living and vastly lower taxes so you would even earn more. I have known many ppl moved out of bay area and I think Seattle is one of the top paying locations all things considered
      - Tiktaalik 3y ago
        There are other subtle taxation differences that could really matter by jurisdiction as well (ie. low property taxes in much of Canada) and of course low healthcare costs (though this matters less for the highly paid tech worker). I mean for parents in Canada they could get $10/day daycare in some places as that's ramping up more and more. That could be a dramatic cost savings for a certain person. It would be interesting to see someone do a real comprehensive look between the countries that touches literally every possible cost. I don't think I've seen that. With my own back of the envelope math comparisons, the countries did tighten up.
brailsafe 3y ago
Vancouver software dev checking-in. I'd say that your assessment is on the optimistic side. Was laid-off 3 months ago, prospects are non-existent, rentals (if they're anything like last time I had to move) are non-existent, and studio condos start at around $500k if they're old. If I'm forced to move when my landlord's mortgage is up for renewal, I have no idea what I'll do. So ya, seems like a pretty in-coherent policy change. The only way to compete seems to be to just look to other countries.

version_five 3y ago

> At first glance, it looks like those measures will only serve to devalue the tech salaries even more (already at a considerable discount over US ones) and make the housing situation even worse That's exactly the point, but they call it "addressing a skills shortage" and there is a huge entrenched interest in keeping the property bubble going higher and higher. Mortgage rates should be slaughtering house prices, more scarcity is the only way to keep them high.

morkalork 3y ago
Seems like people are waiting to sell because of the high rates instead of settling for less.
tenpies 3y ago
> there is a huge entrenched interest in keeping the property bubble going higher and higher. Just to paint the picture, in Canada: * Prime Minister Trudeau is a trust fund kind with rental income * Finance Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Freeland, has four mortgages * Housing Minister Hussen literally purchased another rental property recently * 1/3 of all Liberal MPs have rental income in their disclosures What Trudeau is doing to Canada is what my friends and I call the Slum Lord's Delight scenario: * Flood the country with people who will need housing, while offering them no warning of just how unaffordable things are. * Do absolutely nothing to increase housing supply. Add as many new taxes, fees, and regulation as you can to ensure new supply declines. * Do everything you can to allow younger Canadians and new immigrants to borrow more and pay more for housing. Your solution to affordability is helping them borrow more, not reducing prices. * If anyone complains about immigration, call them racist. * If anyone complains about housing, blame the provinces and municipalities (whichever level isn't Liberal). * If anyone thinks of protesting, go Trucker Protests / Tiananmen Square on them I would not be surprised if Trudeau achieves a China-esque market before he's eventually removed or self-exiles, meaning a market where people never actually own the land, but rather have long term rentals (under a different name) of the property from a State owned company or monopoly.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  You're leaving out the fact that the Conservative party is basically identical in structural composition and interests in keeping the housing market bloated. To the point where Pierre stands up in the HoC and goes after Trudeau for BoC rate increases... because his boomer constituency needs Number Go Up because that's their only retirement option after three decades of joint Liberal-Conservative policy. It's a pyramid scheme, and actually the Cons were even worse for it when they were in power federally, and a huge problem with Ontario right now is precisely the provincial Cons in Ontario. Same sauce, slightly different flavour.
  - version_five 3y ago
    Yes, that's true on most issues. Other than Trudeau's particular abhorrent personality, there is no fundamental difference between the liberals and conservatives on any substantive issue. They just have slightly different pork barrel projects and stupid tax credits.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      It's western energy sector vs central banking and finance, same as it's been for decades :-(

hotpotamus 3y ago

If you have a surplus of workers and a deficit of housing, it would seem like a chance to re-skill the workforce into construction, wouldn't it? Instead of the blue-collar workers learning to code, maybe the tech workers can learn to weld? Or am I being ridiculous?

hugocbp 3y ago
That is what happens, at least locally and temporarily. Some of the people I know that have been laid off mid-2022 and end-2022 and still haven't found another tech job have been driving for Uber, delivering for Doordash, doing cleaning and basic construction jobs to get by. Those are completely different occupations, though, and appeal to people with probably different personalities. The Housing problem in Canada is complex and not easy to explain in short sentences, but I can basically assure you that lack of construction workers is not the main reason it exists.
octacat 3y ago
Reskill workforce into the bank workers ;) Constructing more means housing prices go down, which would piss off the banking sector and people who has several houses (or even at least one sometimes). It would piss off for sure people who has less than one house (i.e. already existing mortgage contracts).
caskstrength 3y ago
> If you have a surplus of workers and a deficit of housing, it would seem like a chance to re-skill the workforce into construction, wouldn't it? Instead of the blue-collar workers learning to code, maybe the tech workers can learn to weld? Or am I being ridiculous? I don't think that the lack of construction workers is the main reason for current crazy property prices in the western world.

RobertDeNiro 3y ago

Its an awful policy, and in the long run will harm Canadians more than anything.

preommr 3y ago

> Canada housing situation is also not that great and with no signs of improving. Real estate musical chairs is pretty much a central pillar of the Canadian economy. Like 1/5 people live in the GTA, and 1/59 workers in Toronto is a real estate agent. The numbers would be hilarious if they weren't so sad.

red-iron-pine 3y ago
A graphical representation of this poster's point: 50% of Canadians live below this line -- https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1600907559216390146?lang=en https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1600907559216390146?la...

dangerwill 3y ago

As of when I last checked in 2021, Seattle tech salaries are 10-20% higher compared to Vancouver with house prices being like 33% lower. I imagine this situation holds when you compare Toronto to Chicago or Montreal to Boston. Even if the Canadian government makes the bureaucracy simpler/less onerous/less evil as long as those fundamental conditions exist I don't expect to see a mass exodus to Canada.

pcthrowaway 3y ago
According to https://www.levels.fyi/2022/ https://www.levels.fyi/2022/ , Seattle salaries are nearly double what they are in Vancouver
- dleslie 3y ago
  And if you go farther south, salaries are triple what they are in Vancouver. Or much more, if you're senior or specialized. A word of advice: if you have employable skills in tech simply avoid Canada; and if you must travel here, then work for Americans. They'll pay you much more than anyone local will even consider.
  - gloryjulio 3y ago
    Not sure about that. You don't get more pay in the bay area, you actually would be paid less because of the taxes. Seattle has faang level offices and their compensation numbers is a bit lower than their counter parts in bay area. But u get lower cost of living and vastly lower taxes so you would even earn more. I have known many ppl moved out of bay area and I think Seattle is one of the top paying locations all things considered
    - Tiktaalik 3y ago
      There are other subtle taxation differences that could really matter by jurisdiction as well (ie. low property taxes in much of Canada) and of course low healthcare costs (though this matters less for the highly paid tech worker). I mean for parents in Canada they could get $10/day daycare in some places as that's ramping up more and more. That could be a dramatic cost savings for a certain person. It would be interesting to see someone do a real comprehensive look between the countries that touches literally every possible cost. I don't think I've seen that. With my own back of the envelope math comparisons, the countries did tighten up.

brailsafe 3y ago

Vancouver software dev checking-in. I'd say that your assessment is on the optimistic side. Was laid-off 3 months ago, prospects are non-existent, rentals (if they're anything like last time I had to move) are non-existent, and studio condos start at around $500k if they're old. If I'm forced to move when my landlord's mortgage is up for renewal, I have no idea what I'll do. So ya, seems like a pretty in-coherent policy change. The only way to compete seems to be to just look to other countries.