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No, I meant that they wanted a separate political entity (or at least Moriscos' leaders wanted that). As you can guess, they were assumed to be traitors and exp

No, I meant that they wanted a separate political entity (or at least Moriscos' leaders wanted that). As you can guess, they were assumed to be traitors and expelled of Spain. > But let’s say for a moment you might even be passably correct? Why did they rebel? Was it because they were being violently subjugated by the crown? They were subjects of the Crown, as the things worked that way then, if you rebel against the Crown you were killed. Obeying the Crown in the XVI century meant to follow the official religion. The Muslims did the same some centuries earlier so I can imagine that "forcing people to practice a religion" was a common practice during that era. > (Keep in mind that crown went on to do a lot more subjugating in the New World. The Spanish crown loved murdering people who weren’t Catholic.) Well, of course the Spanish Empire was subjugating its subjects the same way English or French were doing. That was a common practice during that time (not that I'm defending that). In the case of the Spanish Empire, they were lucky to find people that were slaved by the Mexica (common known as Aztecs by us) and they rely on their help to conquest what is now Mexico. You can guess the other parts of Hispanic-America suffered a similar fate. I don't get your point, you are using current culture and values to judge facts that happened 5 centuries ago. Of course they were evil and inhumane, what did you expect?

erenyeager 3y ago
> The Muslims did the same some centuries earlier so I can imagine that "forcing people to practice a religion" was a common practice during that era. This is generally not true for Al-Andalus. In general Christians were not forced to convert to Islam under the initial Umayyad rule and by the later periods almost 80% of Al-Andalus’ Muslim population was estimated to be from converts from Christianity to Islam, called the Muladi. This was by and large voluntary. And the remaining Christians were given a protected Dhimmi status which preserved their religious practice and conducting their internal affairs via Christian courts. Castile also had an edict of tolerance that was revoked when they decided to expel the Moors and took a very extreme approach of convert or leave or die. It’s not equal at all, the Kingdom of Castile which later became Spain committed in what modern day we would term a genocide against Moriscos and Conversos. Some Moriscos fled to mountains or adopted cryptic ways of preserving their traditions and religious practice under the Spanish oppression centuries after the fall of the Emirate of Granada. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus#:~:text=Half%20of%20the%20Christians%20in,Arabized%20in%20terms%20of%20culture https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange....
- wageslave99 3y ago
  Well, I don't want to rain on your parade, but there are several events of pogroms and massacres against Christians and Jews in the Arab Iberian Kingdoms[1][2]. Of course, most of the Muslims of Iberia were converts. Arabs were the nobles and ruling class, but the workers came from the same population that was already there. Because of the taxes that Muslim rules forced upon the non-Muslims[3] (Mozarabs mostly[4]), most of them convert to Islam. It had already happened in the past when most of Celtiberian converted to Roman religion, most of Romans converted to Christianity, Arianism Visigoths converted to Catholicism, and of course Christians converted to Islam once their rules pushed them to do so. > Castile also had an edict of tolerance that was revoked when they decided to expel the Moors and took a very extreme approach of convert or leave or die. Yeah sure, after the Moriscos rebelled. Sadly, rules pushing for a "state religion" was nothing new. > It’s not equal at all, the Kingdom of Castile which later became Spain committed in what modern day we would term a genocide against Moriscos and Conversos. Some Moriscos fled to mountains or adopted cryptic ways of preserving their traditions and religious practice under the Spanish oppression centuries after the fall of the Emirate of Granada. Well, as I said, that was common practice during that era. At least, the ruling class gave them the opportunity to convert to other religion (it's something). Moriscos rebelled against the Crowns (Castile and Aragon) and took arms against the Kingdom, what would you think it could happened to them?[5] A contemporary example, what did happen to the Byzantine population when Constantinople fell to Ottomans?[6] Let me tell you, 50k slaved people. My point here is that you are nitpicking and isolating facts and not seeing the historical context where these events happened: - There were no human rights at that time. - Racism and discrimination were commonplace and assumed at the standard way of life. - What Castile, Aragon, Navarre, Iberian Muslim Taifas or whatever other medieval ruler on what we know today as Spain were brutal and fierce. - The situation of most of the population was dire (it didn't matter who was the ruler). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabs [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople

erenyeager 3y ago

> The Muslims did the same some centuries earlier so I can imagine that "forcing people to practice a religion" was a common practice during that era. This is generally not true for Al-Andalus. In general Christians were not forced to convert to Islam under the initial Umayyad rule and by the later periods almost 80% of Al-Andalus’ Muslim population was estimated to be from converts from Christianity to Islam, called the Muladi. This was by and large voluntary. And the remaining Christians were given a protected Dhimmi status which preserved their religious practice and conducting their internal affairs via Christian courts. Castile also had an edict of tolerance that was revoked when they decided to expel the Moors and took a very extreme approach of convert or leave or die. It’s not equal at all, the Kingdom of Castile which later became Spain committed in what modern day we would term a genocide against Moriscos and Conversos. Some Moriscos fled to mountains or adopted cryptic ways of preserving their traditions and religious practice under the Spanish oppression centuries after the fall of the Emirate of Granada. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus#:~:text=Half%20of%20the%20Christians%20in,Arabized%20in%20terms%20of%20culture https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange....

wageslave99 3y ago
Well, I don't want to rain on your parade, but there are several events of pogroms and massacres against Christians and Jews in the Arab Iberian Kingdoms[1][2]. Of course, most of the Muslims of Iberia were converts. Arabs were the nobles and ruling class, but the workers came from the same population that was already there. Because of the taxes that Muslim rules forced upon the non-Muslims[3] (Mozarabs mostly[4]), most of them convert to Islam. It had already happened in the past when most of Celtiberian converted to Roman religion, most of Romans converted to Christianity, Arianism Visigoths converted to Catholicism, and of course Christians converted to Islam once their rules pushed them to do so. > Castile also had an edict of tolerance that was revoked when they decided to expel the Moors and took a very extreme approach of convert or leave or die. Yeah sure, after the Moriscos rebelled. Sadly, rules pushing for a "state religion" was nothing new. > It’s not equal at all, the Kingdom of Castile which later became Spain committed in what modern day we would term a genocide against Moriscos and Conversos. Some Moriscos fled to mountains or adopted cryptic ways of preserving their traditions and religious practice under the Spanish oppression centuries after the fall of the Emirate of Granada. Well, as I said, that was common practice during that era. At least, the ruling class gave them the opportunity to convert to other religion (it's something). Moriscos rebelled against the Crowns (Castile and Aragon) and took arms against the Kingdom, what would you think it could happened to them?[5] A contemporary example, what did happen to the Byzantine population when Constantinople fell to Ottomans?[6] Let me tell you, 50k slaved people. My point here is that you are nitpicking and isolating facts and not seeing the historical context where these events happened: - There were no human rights at that time. - Racism and discrimination were commonplace and assumed at the standard way of life. - What Castile, Aragon, Navarre, Iberian Muslim Taifas or whatever other medieval ruler on what we know today as Spain were brutal and fierce. - The situation of most of the population was dire (it didn't matter who was the ruler). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabs [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople