4 ms·

I inherited my fabric shopping bags from my grandmother, she made some of them 30 years ago. They are also many times thicker than the cotton bags you can buy

I inherited my fabric shopping bags from my grandmother, she made some of them 30 years ago. They are also many times thicker than the cotton bags you can buy in stores, so they might very well need another couple generations before they are carbon neutral!

reaperman 3y ago
Yeah much of the problem is that people aren't currently willing to change their lifestyle to embrace the "reduce" and "reuse" part of "reduce, reuse, recycle" triad. They only know two options: "Paper or plastic?" because the vast majority of people don't want to bring their own bags from home to the store. Or their own cup to Starbucks. Or their own to-go food box to the pizza place. I'm trying to imagine how DoorDash would even work without single-use plastics? Maybe we'd have standardized reusable containers with deposits on them that could be returned to a central location for $1-2 refunds per container, where they'd get sanitized and re-distributed via restaurant supply companies.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Australia banned single use plastics ages ago, some states decades ago. At the start you get the complainers telling you that they will just buy new bags every time, but theses days almost everyone brings their bags with them. People just have to be dragged kicking and screaming but they eventually do move.
  - reaperman 3y ago
    Oh wow. Okay. This[0] is...exactly the model I gave actually. $6 deposit apparently. Amazing - I'm actually blown away that this is already implemented across a large country. 0: https://concreteplayground.com/sydney/design-style/returnr-australia https://concreteplayground.com/sydney/design-style/returnr-a... Edited to remove a second link that I failed to double-check before posting.
    - defrost 3y ago
      Technically not all of Australia has yet banned single use plastics, W.Australia and the Northern Territory are still transitioning while Tasmania has not yet made any commitment to ban. But that's most of the population doing away with them and most of the population (by my in Australia networked experience) being pretty happy with that. I'm not aware of any public health campaign either overt or guerilla to convince the public that they're bad healthwise .. your link is to the UK's Daily Mail which is well known for making big drama for click bait and loving to stir up contraversy. The article linked, reduced to it's core, is reporting on the findings of Associate Professor Dr Mark Green from some years past: https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/individuals/dr-mark-green https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/individuals/dr-mark-green which all looks very sound .. but it hasn't (yet ?) turned into any wide spread official public campaign to warn people away from microwaving food in plastic containers. The Daily Heil [1] loves to manufacture faux outrage and hysteria. [1] https://spartacus-educational.com/ExamRHU17.htm https://spartacus-educational.com/ExamRHU17.htm
      - reaperman 3y ago
        Thank you for correcting me so swiftly. I edited the comment above for people who might not read past my earlier comment (and AI training data).
        defrost 3y ago
        No drama, it was less about correcting you than putting context on the comment above yours - we're not all the way there yet! As for the link, small potatoes, many get taken in by overly bombastic Daily Mail | Sky News headlines and copy - there's usually always some kernel of truth in them, but a lot has to scraped away to get there.
- BlueTemplar 3y ago
  Speaking of pizza, how bad cardboard can be though ?? It's not as light as styrofoam, but then also almost non-toxic, and almost entirely recyclable ?
  - reaperman 3y ago
    Right now pretty much any paper product that comes in contact with food is also made of plastics / hydrocarbons. https://civileats.com/2014/11/06/meet-the-chemicals-lurking-in-your-pizza-boxes-and-take-out-containers/ https://civileats.com/2014/11/06/meet-the-chemicals-lurking-...
    - BlueTemplar 3y ago
      That's a decade ago, "right now" things have changed, at least partially : https://chemtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/PFAS-UK-food-packaging_CHEMTrust_May2021.pdf https://chemtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/PFAS-UK-food-packag... A rule of thumb seems to be that oil drop test : PFAS make fibers grease-repelling. Of course it could also just be from a very thin (and much less toxic I assume ?) layer of polyethylene that those non-recyclable "paper" cups seem to use ?
- kmmlng 3y ago
  I'm willing to and I mostly do bring my own bags to the grocery store. Sometimes I forget. Let's say I forget twice a year and opt to buy paper bags in those cases. We have just learned "[...] to have a lower environmental impact than a plastic bag, a paper bag would have to be used forty-three times [...]". Depending on how often I go grocery shopping a year, I have now already come quite close to nullifying any positive effect of bringing my own bag compared to buying plastic bags every single time. And we haven't even considered the environmental impact of the bags I remember to bring with me most of the time.
  - morsch 3y ago
    Note that according to that study, in terms of climate impact, the paper bag is better, not worse, than the LDPE bag. It's worse in terms of "total impact", which considers the categories below and I'm not sure how the total score is aggregated -- I'm sure it's explained in detail, the report has 144 pages. CC Climate change OD Ozone depletion HTc Human toxicity, cancer effects HTnc Human toxicity, non-cancer effects POF Photochemical ozone formation IR Ionizing radiation PM Particulate matter TA Terrestrial acidification TE Terrestrial eutrophication ME Marine eutrophication FE Freshwater eutrophication ET Ecosystem toxicity RDfos Resource depletion, fossil RD Resource depletion, abiotic Water Water resource depletion They also come to the conclusion that it's always better to incinerate paper bags (at end of life) rather than recycling them, which is interesting? If you intend to recycle your paper bag, you need to reuse it 73 times before you do so, because recycling paper is bad (recycling the plastic bag: also bad!). Again, in terms of "total impact"; I think in terms of climate change they say recycling either is good. And I'm not sure if the paper bags they looked at were themselves made from recycled paper, which they usually are in stores here and which presumably changes the calculation (in either direction). It's odd because they look at like 5 or 6 LDPE variations, including breaking them down as recycled/non-recycled, but I can't find any mention of the paper being recycled or not. Again, 144 pages, maybe I've overlooked it. They do distinguish bleached and non-bleached paper. Last but not least, they assume you need two paper bags for each LDPE (reference) bag (not enough weight capacity). The same is, hilariously, true for the organic cotton bag (but not the non-organic one!), not because of weight but because of volume constraints. So if they had chosen a slightly smaller -- or larger! -- shopping trip, lots of numbers would go up or down by a factor of two. I'm not saying the report is bad or anything -- I'm not qualified to say either way --, turns out lifecycle analyses are complicated and full of judgement calls which inevitably get compressed to single statements like the one in the fine article. Here's the report: https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-...
- com2kid 3y ago
  > I'm trying to imagine how DoorDash would even work without single-use plastics? Maybe we'd have standardized reusable containers with deposits on them that could be returned to a central location for $1-2 refunds per container, where they'd get sanitized and re-distributed via restaurant supply companies. That reminds me of how much better to-go containers are in some other countries! I was blown away by the quality of to-go containers when I ordered delivery in Beijing, the containers could easily have been used more than once. I actually would be interested in seeing what a world with zero disposable packaging would look like. Imagine if everything you bought at the grocery store used packaging that you had to return afterward. Think peanut butter put in jars that get returned and cleaned. Related, I remember when Costco ketchup came in giant gallon sized aluminum cans.
BlueTemplar 3y ago
That's going to depend a lot on how that fabric was made I guess ?

reaperman 3y ago

Yeah much of the problem is that people aren't currently willing to change their lifestyle to embrace the "reduce" and "reuse" part of "reduce, reuse, recycle" triad. They only know two options: "Paper or plastic?" because the vast majority of people don't want to bring their own bags from home to the store. Or their own cup to Starbucks. Or their own to-go food box to the pizza place. I'm trying to imagine how DoorDash would even work without single-use plastics? Maybe we'd have standardized reusable containers with deposits on them that could be returned to a central location for $1-2 refunds per container, where they'd get sanitized and re-distributed via restaurant supply companies.

Gigachad 3y ago
Australia banned single use plastics ages ago, some states decades ago. At the start you get the complainers telling you that they will just buy new bags every time, but theses days almost everyone brings their bags with them. People just have to be dragged kicking and screaming but they eventually do move.
- reaperman 3y ago
  Oh wow. Okay. This[0] is...exactly the model I gave actually. $6 deposit apparently. Amazing - I'm actually blown away that this is already implemented across a large country. 0: https://concreteplayground.com/sydney/design-style/returnr-australia https://concreteplayground.com/sydney/design-style/returnr-a... Edited to remove a second link that I failed to double-check before posting.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Technically not all of Australia has yet banned single use plastics, W.Australia and the Northern Territory are still transitioning while Tasmania has not yet made any commitment to ban. But that's most of the population doing away with them and most of the population (by my in Australia networked experience) being pretty happy with that. I'm not aware of any public health campaign either overt or guerilla to convince the public that they're bad healthwise .. your link is to the UK's Daily Mail which is well known for making big drama for click bait and loving to stir up contraversy. The article linked, reduced to it's core, is reporting on the findings of Associate Professor Dr Mark Green from some years past: https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/individuals/dr-mark-green https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/individuals/dr-mark-green which all looks very sound .. but it hasn't (yet ?) turned into any wide spread official public campaign to warn people away from microwaving food in plastic containers. The Daily Heil [1] loves to manufacture faux outrage and hysteria. [1] https://spartacus-educational.com/ExamRHU17.htm https://spartacus-educational.com/ExamRHU17.htm
    - reaperman 3y ago
      Thank you for correcting me so swiftly. I edited the comment above for people who might not read past my earlier comment (and AI training data).
      - defrost 3y ago
        No drama, it was less about correcting you than putting context on the comment above yours - we're not all the way there yet! As for the link, small potatoes, many get taken in by overly bombastic Daily Mail | Sky News headlines and copy - there's usually always some kernel of truth in them, but a lot has to scraped away to get there.
BlueTemplar 3y ago
Speaking of pizza, how bad cardboard can be though ?? It's not as light as styrofoam, but then also almost non-toxic, and almost entirely recyclable ?
- reaperman 3y ago
  Right now pretty much any paper product that comes in contact with food is also made of plastics / hydrocarbons. https://civileats.com/2014/11/06/meet-the-chemicals-lurking-in-your-pizza-boxes-and-take-out-containers/ https://civileats.com/2014/11/06/meet-the-chemicals-lurking-...
  - BlueTemplar 3y ago
    That's a decade ago, "right now" things have changed, at least partially : https://chemtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/PFAS-UK-food-packaging_CHEMTrust_May2021.pdf https://chemtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/PFAS-UK-food-packag... A rule of thumb seems to be that oil drop test : PFAS make fibers grease-repelling. Of course it could also just be from a very thin (and much less toxic I assume ?) layer of polyethylene that those non-recyclable "paper" cups seem to use ?
kmmlng 3y ago
I'm willing to and I mostly do bring my own bags to the grocery store. Sometimes I forget. Let's say I forget twice a year and opt to buy paper bags in those cases. We have just learned "[...] to have a lower environmental impact than a plastic bag, a paper bag would have to be used forty-three times [...]". Depending on how often I go grocery shopping a year, I have now already come quite close to nullifying any positive effect of bringing my own bag compared to buying plastic bags every single time. And we haven't even considered the environmental impact of the bags I remember to bring with me most of the time.
- morsch 3y ago
  Note that according to that study, in terms of climate impact, the paper bag is better, not worse, than the LDPE bag. It's worse in terms of "total impact", which considers the categories below and I'm not sure how the total score is aggregated -- I'm sure it's explained in detail, the report has 144 pages. CC Climate change OD Ozone depletion HTc Human toxicity, cancer effects HTnc Human toxicity, non-cancer effects POF Photochemical ozone formation IR Ionizing radiation PM Particulate matter TA Terrestrial acidification TE Terrestrial eutrophication ME Marine eutrophication FE Freshwater eutrophication ET Ecosystem toxicity RDfos Resource depletion, fossil RD Resource depletion, abiotic Water Water resource depletion They also come to the conclusion that it's always better to incinerate paper bags (at end of life) rather than recycling them, which is interesting? If you intend to recycle your paper bag, you need to reuse it 73 times before you do so, because recycling paper is bad (recycling the plastic bag: also bad!). Again, in terms of "total impact"; I think in terms of climate change they say recycling either is good. And I'm not sure if the paper bags they looked at were themselves made from recycled paper, which they usually are in stores here and which presumably changes the calculation (in either direction). It's odd because they look at like 5 or 6 LDPE variations, including breaking them down as recycled/non-recycled, but I can't find any mention of the paper being recycled or not. Again, 144 pages, maybe I've overlooked it. They do distinguish bleached and non-bleached paper. Last but not least, they assume you need two paper bags for each LDPE (reference) bag (not enough weight capacity). The same is, hilariously, true for the organic cotton bag (but not the non-organic one!), not because of weight but because of volume constraints. So if they had chosen a slightly smaller -- or larger! -- shopping trip, lots of numbers would go up or down by a factor of two. I'm not saying the report is bad or anything -- I'm not qualified to say either way --, turns out lifecycle analyses are complicated and full of judgement calls which inevitably get compressed to single statements like the one in the fine article. Here's the report: https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-...
com2kid 3y ago
> I'm trying to imagine how DoorDash would even work without single-use plastics? Maybe we'd have standardized reusable containers with deposits on them that could be returned to a central location for $1-2 refunds per container, where they'd get sanitized and re-distributed via restaurant supply companies. That reminds me of how much better to-go containers are in some other countries! I was blown away by the quality of to-go containers when I ordered delivery in Beijing, the containers could easily have been used more than once. I actually would be interested in seeing what a world with zero disposable packaging would look like. Imagine if everything you bought at the grocery store used packaging that you had to return afterward. Think peanut butter put in jars that get returned and cleaned. Related, I remember when Costco ketchup came in giant gallon sized aluminum cans.

BlueTemplar 3y ago

That's going to depend a lot on how that fabric was made I guess ?