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Welcoming Shopify as a Ladybird sponsor

246 points by msub2 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
riffraff 3y ago
I'm very happy Shopify is doing this, but at the same time I'm mildly confused by the rationale. Is it literally just goodwill, or does Shopify stand to have other potential advantages out of this? Either way, cool.
- thunderbong 3y ago
  Maybe someone from Shopify will pipe in. They have a very strong engineering team and their posts are of high quality.
- squokko 3y ago
  Why do some rich guys hand out big tips everywhere they go? It makes them feel big and good, but it's also a good long term strategy to make people like you.
- WJW 3y ago
  Just off the top of my head: - Could be "just" goodwill, paying this out of the marketing budget to strengthen brand recognition amongst developers. - Goodwill amongst developers is not just a feelgood benefit btw. Being known for supporting open source projects might help with the hiring pipeline for example. Making current employees feel better about Shopify would presumably also reduce employees turnover rate, leading to lower recruiting costs. - Shopify as a company is extremely dependent on "the web" for its business, and would benefit from it being built on open standards. Supporting a variety of browsers leads to more competition in the browser space, which would support Shopify in the long run (see also the classic "commoditize your complement" article: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ )
  - davnicwil 3y ago
    I'd say the amount donated (100k) suggests it can only really be marketing budget (possibly folding recruitment into this). For an organisation of Shopify's size it's way too low an amount to invest if they expect significant strategic advantage from actually using the software.
    - WJW 3y ago
      Investment size does suggest that, but I don't think it is as clear-cut as you say. First, Ladybird is basically a one-man project and I don't think they are really looking to become a company as such. This means there is a practical maximum you can invest even if it was a very important project. The effect of investing 500k would be basically the same as investing 100k (ie, de dev behind can now work on the project full-time) and if you invest too much that might make it a shopify-exclusive project. If the goal is to sponsor a new widely used open source browser it makes sense not to monopolize it too much, because then people wouldn't see the project as "open" anymore. Now there can still be other sponsors. Second, a project like this probably has a fairly low chance of actually succeeding in gaining market share from one of the big browsers. If shopify actually has some type of Strategic Investment Budget for commoditizing complements and the like, it would probably make sense to split it VC-style over many small projects rather than making big bets on only a few projects. If one of the small projects gains traction, you can always support it more when needed.
      - davnicwil 3y ago
        You make good points, and yeah of course there may be a behind-the-scenes understanding that further funding will be made available as needed / when specific goals are hit, that's true!
  - marginalia_nu 3y ago
    It's also a way of effectively funding a non-committal proxy war on big tech. I think almost everyone can see that the status quo creates a bad business environment, the big G can dictate terms far too unilaterally and is dire need of competition. Funding this sort of development can be a long term strategy to upset the status quo without risking the entire business by going on some kamikaze pivot that puts you in direct competition with Google or Apple. That would be investor relations suicide. It's a very safe bet. It doesn't work out, and they lose $100k and can write it off as marketing and get some goodwill out of it. If it works out, and they sabotage Google for $100k. One may say this is unlikely to succeed, that they are too entrenched, if it wasn't for the fact that this exact move succeeded already with Microsoft and Linux in the '90s. Linus had nothing to his name but a janky Minix knockoff, and the entire userspace was filled with Richard Stallman's bizarre menagerie of hippie software. Does that seem like plausible competition for Microsoft, who at the time was by far the wealthiest software company in the world? Well, as it turns out, yeah, Linux became one hell of a fly in the ointment for them.
- npn 3y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling/search?query=shopify https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling/search?query=shopify Maybe this is one of the reason? It will be awesome if Ladybird can render Shopify perfectly, not to mention all the free exposure.
  - lyu07282 3y ago
    What is that link showing? Is he using Shopify as a random website to test his browser against or something? If that's it, that's so hilarious wholesome to end up getting sponsored by them I love it.
    - npn 3y ago
      A list of videos when Andreas Kling uses the landing page of Shopify at the sample to implement new features or fix the broken ones, mostly SVG/layout related. Like it was stated in one of the video, Shopify uses a lot of modern cutting-edge web technologies, so display the site correctly is quite the challenge. You should watch some of his videos if you have free time, it is a pleasant surprise of what Ladybird can do after just some dozen months of development.
- samwillis 3y ago
  Along with the other suggestions, if Shopify were looking to build a POS (point of sale) device - a "Shopify terminal" - on low cost low power hardware then Labybird could be a good fit for the UI. There are other browser engines targeted at this sort of embedded product, and ladybird obviously isn't specifically targeting it. But it may be a good play due to licensing and royalties if they expect to build millions of them. Another could be to build a WYSIWYG rich text editor. Obviously a lot of Shopifys front end is about point and click building a store visually. "contenteditable" based editors are a nightmare of browser inconsistencies and bugs. If you could compile Ladybird to WASM and render to a html canvas, you could side step all that with your existing editor, only having to target one "browser". I've not seen anyone do that yet, but I think it's a really compelling use case. (Accessibility of canvas based UIs is still an unsolved problem though)
- TachyonicBytes 3y ago
  Late to the party, but I didn't see anyone mentioning this: Shopify seems to be curiously extremely involved in sponsoring WebAssembly-related projects. It's a gold sponsor on AssemblyScript[1], it used to develop javy[2] which compiles JavaScript to WebAssembly, a member of the BytecodeAlliance[3]. I wouldn't think they sponsor LadyBird just for LibWasm[4], as that doesn't make any sense, but technically, they add that to their wasm sponsorships now. Honestly, it looks like a really nice place to work if you like WebAssembly, I wouldn't mind a collaboration or to work with them. [1] https://www.assemblyscript.org/ https://www.assemblyscript.org/ [2] https://github.com/Shopify/javy https://github.com/Shopify/javy [3] https://bytecodealliance.org/ https://bytecodealliance.org/ [4] https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Userland/Libraries/LibWasm https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Userland/...
- rollcat 3y ago
  > mildly confused by the rationale Shopify is also sponsoring an eSports team, Shopify Rebellion <https://shopifyrebellion.gg https://shopifyrebellion.gg>, and partnering with ESL to help sponsor StarCraft II events. I think it's a much nicer way of getting publicity than dumping cash on adwords.
- pcdoodle 3y ago
  We use shopify for selling a few products and it sure is nice to keep that extra 10% on every sale (vs. eBay and Amazon). Now looking into their fulfillment options as the price is pretty good ($5.70 shipped to customer for our product in the USA and around $10.00 international). I like this company.
- xal 3y ago
  I share some rationale here: https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1674065759754936327 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1674065759754936327 > The web is one of the most amazing and unlikely products of humanity. Free and deeply egalitarian. No app store would allow the web to launch today. > But it's a gargantuan task to build a new browser from scratch, and there are few people with the range of skills to pull it off. Andreas is one of the few and we are lucky that he can focus on such a task. > I think of Shopify as one of the 'killer apps' of the open web. Not unlike office to windows, visicalc to the apple2 or half-life to steam. As such, we love to support open source that makes the web better. This is why we support Rails, Remix, and now Ladybird. (and many many others)
thunderbong 3y ago
We seriously need a good open source browser alternative. Great to see competition here. I would love to see a browser built for developers with new paradigms for Dev Tools. Of course, the challenge will be parity in terms of rendering and performance with the current incumbents.
- sverhagen 3y ago
  I don't know... I'm probably a Firefox fanboy, but all this fragmentation in the market of browsers that are not named Chrome isn't doing us much good in beating Chrome. I'm interested in Chrome being beaten, and it still seems Firefox has the best cards (though I don't know _how_). Once there's healthy competition in browser land, let's reconsider fragmenting it ;-)
  - tomashubelbauer 3y ago
    I am also a Firefox fanboy but I don't have any hope Firefox will improve its market share in any meaningful way without significant changes at Mozilla. At this point I am convinced Mozilla is the biggest obstacle to Firefox's success.
  - ekianjo 3y ago
    > and it still seems Firefox has the best cards Not with the current execs
    - sverhagen 3y ago
      Didn't say they had great cards...
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    I'll stick with Firefox for as long as I can, but I no longer trust Mozilla leadership with browser development. Ladybird has a long way road ahead before it can actually compete. Servo and WebKit are in much better positions to get a competitive edge if a serious browser maker would actually give it a go. That said, the modern programming standard employed by Ladybird makes me hopeful that it'll make for a better browser in the long term. Even if it dies a quiet death in a few years, it'll be a useful inspiration for ideas other browser vendors can hopefully take something away from.
easton 3y ago
Very cool that Ladybird has gotten like $300k in the last month after years of Andreas and co working on it for significantly less than that.
chrismsimpson 3y ago
Wow! That’s massive! I declare 202x the year of the SerenityOS Desktop!
bilekas 3y ago
This is incredible!! Great news and really happy for him. Watching the browser alone come to life has been an absolute treat!
sergiotapia 3y ago
I feel like I'm on the ground level of when Firefox was first being built. It's a very exciting project that is 100% for a free, open web. What a great achievement!
- tibbydudeza 3y ago
  Yep I fondly remember reading the blog posts by Blake Ross and Dave Hyatt. Is Dave still at Apple working on Safari ???.
kramerger 3y ago
Please use the money to rewrite it in Jakt ;) Jakt needs a posterchild project to receive the required attention. Besides, it would send not one but two strong messages to Mozilla
- lolinder 3y ago
  I think the money is probably better directed at building out browser features than rewriting anything. Building a browser on top of a language that is still in heavy development is a recipe for a failed browser.
- akling 3y ago
  Memory safety is absolutely on the long-term roadmap for Ladybird. But Jakt still needs time to mature before making it a dependency :)
  - kramerger 3y ago
    Sounds like a plan! (sorry)
tibbydudeza 3y ago
Kudos to Andreas for initiating this project and the various contributors.
akling 3y ago
Hello friends! I’m really happy to have Shopify putting their faith in our little project like this :) If you’d like a quick intro to the Ladybird project, I presented it at a conference earlier this month: https://youtu.be/De8N1zrQwRs https://youtu.be/De8N1zrQwRs Huge thanks to Mike, Tobi and the other folks at Shopify who hooked this up. <3
- slekker 3y ago
  Congratulations Andreas! One question that might have already popped up: with more and more attention going to Ladybird (in contrast to SerenityOS), how will these sponsorships direct what you do in both projects?
  - akling 3y ago
    Thank you! Indeed, all of these large sponsorships so far have been specifically for Ladybird development. That’s also what I’ve been personally focusing on for many months already, so nothing really changes about my day-to-day. The main new thing this enables is hiring more full-time engineers to work on the browser. (Still have details to figure out here though!) That said, keep in mind that 99% of work on Ladybird also improves SerenityOS, since they are part of the same mega-project. :)
    - prox 3y ago
      We just talked about browser choices yesterday. I really hope we get back a “people’s” browser and not boxed in experiences from Big Tech that the market currently has. I hope this project remains dedicated to such a vision!
- pkphilip 3y ago
  Congratulations, Andreas! Keep up the good work on Serenity and Ladybird! I hope to move to using Serenity OS once it matures somewhat :)
- bvm 3y ago
  did this come about because shopify was the first page you visited in your May update video? nice bit of serendipity!
gigel82 3y ago
Any plans for bringing Ladybird to other operating systems?
- akling 3y ago
  It currently runs on SerenityOS, Linux and macOS. And Windows with WSL (I know, I know..) We’ve also seen screenshots of Ladybird on FreeBSD, Haiku, and even Android at one point. Those are not maintained though, but we’ll come back to them eventually I’m sure :)
asicsp 3y ago
Related (not sure if it is the same sponsor): "I have received a $100k sponsorship for Ladybird browser" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36377805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36377805 (540 points | 10 days ago | 166 comments)
- akling 3y ago
  That was a separate sponsor! This month has been weird, to say the least :)
ementally 3y ago
Nice! Would be great if it is being built with security in mind.
olivierestsage 3y ago
SerenityOS and Ladybird are some of the only things happening in tech right now that lower, rather than raise, my blood pressure.
frozenlettuce 3y ago
Crazy to think that about one month ago there were some haters on twitter were claiming that the project would never amount to anything. Way to go, Kling!

246 points by msub2 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

I'm very happy Shopify is doing this, but at the same time I'm mildly confused by the rationale. Is it literally just goodwill, or does Shopify stand to have other potential advantages out of this? Either way, cool.

thunderbong 3y ago
Maybe someone from Shopify will pipe in. They have a very strong engineering team and their posts are of high quality.
squokko 3y ago
Why do some rich guys hand out big tips everywhere they go? It makes them feel big and good, but it's also a good long term strategy to make people like you.
WJW 3y ago
Just off the top of my head: - Could be "just" goodwill, paying this out of the marketing budget to strengthen brand recognition amongst developers. - Goodwill amongst developers is not just a feelgood benefit btw. Being known for supporting open source projects might help with the hiring pipeline for example. Making current employees feel better about Shopify would presumably also reduce employees turnover rate, leading to lower recruiting costs. - Shopify as a company is extremely dependent on "the web" for its business, and would benefit from it being built on open standards. Supporting a variety of browsers leads to more competition in the browser space, which would support Shopify in the long run (see also the classic "commoditize your complement" article: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ )
- davnicwil 3y ago
  I'd say the amount donated (100k) suggests it can only really be marketing budget (possibly folding recruitment into this). For an organisation of Shopify's size it's way too low an amount to invest if they expect significant strategic advantage from actually using the software.
  - WJW 3y ago
    Investment size does suggest that, but I don't think it is as clear-cut as you say. First, Ladybird is basically a one-man project and I don't think they are really looking to become a company as such. This means there is a practical maximum you can invest even if it was a very important project. The effect of investing 500k would be basically the same as investing 100k (ie, de dev behind can now work on the project full-time) and if you invest too much that might make it a shopify-exclusive project. If the goal is to sponsor a new widely used open source browser it makes sense not to monopolize it too much, because then people wouldn't see the project as "open" anymore. Now there can still be other sponsors. Second, a project like this probably has a fairly low chance of actually succeeding in gaining market share from one of the big browsers. If shopify actually has some type of Strategic Investment Budget for commoditizing complements and the like, it would probably make sense to split it VC-style over many small projects rather than making big bets on only a few projects. If one of the small projects gains traction, you can always support it more when needed.
    - davnicwil 3y ago
      You make good points, and yeah of course there may be a behind-the-scenes understanding that further funding will be made available as needed / when specific goals are hit, that's true!
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  It's also a way of effectively funding a non-committal proxy war on big tech. I think almost everyone can see that the status quo creates a bad business environment, the big G can dictate terms far too unilaterally and is dire need of competition. Funding this sort of development can be a long term strategy to upset the status quo without risking the entire business by going on some kamikaze pivot that puts you in direct competition with Google or Apple. That would be investor relations suicide. It's a very safe bet. It doesn't work out, and they lose $100k and can write it off as marketing and get some goodwill out of it. If it works out, and they sabotage Google for $100k. One may say this is unlikely to succeed, that they are too entrenched, if it wasn't for the fact that this exact move succeeded already with Microsoft and Linux in the '90s. Linus had nothing to his name but a janky Minix knockoff, and the entire userspace was filled with Richard Stallman's bizarre menagerie of hippie software. Does that seem like plausible competition for Microsoft, who at the time was by far the wealthiest software company in the world? Well, as it turns out, yeah, Linux became one hell of a fly in the ointment for them.
npn 3y ago
https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling/search?query=shopify https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling/search?query=shopify Maybe this is one of the reason? It will be awesome if Ladybird can render Shopify perfectly, not to mention all the free exposure.
- lyu07282 3y ago
  What is that link showing? Is he using Shopify as a random website to test his browser against or something? If that's it, that's so hilarious wholesome to end up getting sponsored by them I love it.
  - npn 3y ago
    A list of videos when Andreas Kling uses the landing page of Shopify at the sample to implement new features or fix the broken ones, mostly SVG/layout related. Like it was stated in one of the video, Shopify uses a lot of modern cutting-edge web technologies, so display the site correctly is quite the challenge. You should watch some of his videos if you have free time, it is a pleasant surprise of what Ladybird can do after just some dozen months of development.
samwillis 3y ago
Along with the other suggestions, if Shopify were looking to build a POS (point of sale) device - a "Shopify terminal" - on low cost low power hardware then Labybird could be a good fit for the UI. There are other browser engines targeted at this sort of embedded product, and ladybird obviously isn't specifically targeting it. But it may be a good play due to licensing and royalties if they expect to build millions of them. Another could be to build a WYSIWYG rich text editor. Obviously a lot of Shopifys front end is about point and click building a store visually. "contenteditable" based editors are a nightmare of browser inconsistencies and bugs. If you could compile Ladybird to WASM and render to a html canvas, you could side step all that with your existing editor, only having to target one "browser". I've not seen anyone do that yet, but I think it's a really compelling use case. (Accessibility of canvas based UIs is still an unsolved problem though)
TachyonicBytes 3y ago
Late to the party, but I didn't see anyone mentioning this: Shopify seems to be curiously extremely involved in sponsoring WebAssembly-related projects. It's a gold sponsor on AssemblyScript[1], it used to develop javy[2] which compiles JavaScript to WebAssembly, a member of the BytecodeAlliance[3]. I wouldn't think they sponsor LadyBird just for LibWasm[4], as that doesn't make any sense, but technically, they add that to their wasm sponsorships now. Honestly, it looks like a really nice place to work if you like WebAssembly, I wouldn't mind a collaboration or to work with them. [1] https://www.assemblyscript.org/ https://www.assemblyscript.org/ [2] https://github.com/Shopify/javy https://github.com/Shopify/javy [3] https://bytecodealliance.org/ https://bytecodealliance.org/ [4] https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Userland/Libraries/LibWasm https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Userland/...
rollcat 3y ago
> mildly confused by the rationale Shopify is also sponsoring an eSports team, Shopify Rebellion <https://shopifyrebellion.gg https://shopifyrebellion.gg>, and partnering with ESL to help sponsor StarCraft II events. I think it's a much nicer way of getting publicity than dumping cash on adwords.
pcdoodle 3y ago
We use shopify for selling a few products and it sure is nice to keep that extra 10% on every sale (vs. eBay and Amazon). Now looking into their fulfillment options as the price is pretty good ($5.70 shipped to customer for our product in the USA and around $10.00 international). I like this company.
xal 3y ago
I share some rationale here: https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1674065759754936327 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1674065759754936327 > The web is one of the most amazing and unlikely products of humanity. Free and deeply egalitarian. No app store would allow the web to launch today. > But it's a gargantuan task to build a new browser from scratch, and there are few people with the range of skills to pull it off. Andreas is one of the few and we are lucky that he can focus on such a task. > I think of Shopify as one of the 'killer apps' of the open web. Not unlike office to windows, visicalc to the apple2 or half-life to steam. As such, we love to support open source that makes the web better. This is why we support Rails, Remix, and now Ladybird. (and many many others)

thunderbong 3y ago

We seriously need a good open source browser alternative. Great to see competition here. I would love to see a browser built for developers with new paradigms for Dev Tools. Of course, the challenge will be parity in terms of rendering and performance with the current incumbents.

sverhagen 3y ago
I don't know... I'm probably a Firefox fanboy, but all this fragmentation in the market of browsers that are not named Chrome isn't doing us much good in beating Chrome. I'm interested in Chrome being beaten, and it still seems Firefox has the best cards (though I don't know _how_). Once there's healthy competition in browser land, let's reconsider fragmenting it ;-)
- tomashubelbauer 3y ago
  I am also a Firefox fanboy but I don't have any hope Firefox will improve its market share in any meaningful way without significant changes at Mozilla. At this point I am convinced Mozilla is the biggest obstacle to Firefox's success.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  > and it still seems Firefox has the best cards Not with the current execs
  - sverhagen 3y ago
    Didn't say they had great cards...
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  I'll stick with Firefox for as long as I can, but I no longer trust Mozilla leadership with browser development. Ladybird has a long way road ahead before it can actually compete. Servo and WebKit are in much better positions to get a competitive edge if a serious browser maker would actually give it a go. That said, the modern programming standard employed by Ladybird makes me hopeful that it'll make for a better browser in the long term. Even if it dies a quiet death in a few years, it'll be a useful inspiration for ideas other browser vendors can hopefully take something away from.

easton 3y ago

Very cool that Ladybird has gotten like $300k in the last month after years of Andreas and co working on it for significantly less than that.

chrismsimpson 3y ago

Wow! That’s massive! I declare 202x the year of the SerenityOS Desktop!

bilekas 3y ago

This is incredible!! Great news and really happy for him. Watching the browser alone come to life has been an absolute treat!

sergiotapia 3y ago

I feel like I'm on the ground level of when Firefox was first being built. It's a very exciting project that is 100% for a free, open web. What a great achievement!

tibbydudeza 3y ago
Yep I fondly remember reading the blog posts by Blake Ross and Dave Hyatt. Is Dave still at Apple working on Safari ???.

kramerger 3y ago

Please use the money to rewrite it in Jakt ;) Jakt needs a posterchild project to receive the required attention. Besides, it would send not one but two strong messages to Mozilla

lolinder 3y ago
I think the money is probably better directed at building out browser features than rewriting anything. Building a browser on top of a language that is still in heavy development is a recipe for a failed browser.
akling 3y ago
Memory safety is absolutely on the long-term roadmap for Ladybird. But Jakt still needs time to mature before making it a dependency :)
- kramerger 3y ago
  Sounds like a plan! (sorry)

tibbydudeza 3y ago

Kudos to Andreas for initiating this project and the various contributors.

akling 3y ago

Hello friends! I’m really happy to have Shopify putting their faith in our little project like this :) If you’d like a quick intro to the Ladybird project, I presented it at a conference earlier this month: https://youtu.be/De8N1zrQwRs https://youtu.be/De8N1zrQwRs Huge thanks to Mike, Tobi and the other folks at Shopify who hooked this up. <3

slekker 3y ago
Congratulations Andreas! One question that might have already popped up: with more and more attention going to Ladybird (in contrast to SerenityOS), how will these sponsorships direct what you do in both projects?
- akling 3y ago
  Thank you! Indeed, all of these large sponsorships so far have been specifically for Ladybird development. That’s also what I’ve been personally focusing on for many months already, so nothing really changes about my day-to-day. The main new thing this enables is hiring more full-time engineers to work on the browser. (Still have details to figure out here though!) That said, keep in mind that 99% of work on Ladybird also improves SerenityOS, since they are part of the same mega-project. :)
  - prox 3y ago
    We just talked about browser choices yesterday. I really hope we get back a “people’s” browser and not boxed in experiences from Big Tech that the market currently has. I hope this project remains dedicated to such a vision!
pkphilip 3y ago
Congratulations, Andreas! Keep up the good work on Serenity and Ladybird! I hope to move to using Serenity OS once it matures somewhat :)
bvm 3y ago
did this come about because shopify was the first page you visited in your May update video? nice bit of serendipity!

gigel82 3y ago

Any plans for bringing Ladybird to other operating systems?

akling 3y ago
It currently runs on SerenityOS, Linux and macOS. And Windows with WSL (I know, I know..) We’ve also seen screenshots of Ladybird on FreeBSD, Haiku, and even Android at one point. Those are not maintained though, but we’ll come back to them eventually I’m sure :)

asicsp 3y ago

Related (not sure if it is the same sponsor): "I have received a $100k sponsorship for Ladybird browser" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36377805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36377805 (540 points | 10 days ago | 166 comments)

akling 3y ago
That was a separate sponsor! This month has been weird, to say the least :)

ementally 3y ago

Nice! Would be great if it is being built with security in mind.

olivierestsage 3y ago

SerenityOS and Ladybird are some of the only things happening in tech right now that lower, rather than raise, my blood pressure.

frozenlettuce 3y ago

Crazy to think that about one month ago there were some haters on twitter were claiming that the project would never amount to anything. Way to go, Kling!