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Companies who mandate return to the office should pay employees for the additional commute time at their hourly rate. If this becomes too expensive then product

by jupp0r 3y ago

Companies who mandate return to the office should pay employees for the additional commute time at their hourly rate. If this becomes too expensive then productivity gains from being in the office are apparently not worth it.

deathanatos 3y ago
I agree with you 100%, they should, but companies would look at you like you're demanding an absolutely bonkers amount of money. (They'd much rather the employees come back for free! And they'll complain about the higher than expected attrition the whole way…)
- jupp0r 3y ago
  I agree with you that it's not realistic, but you understand the point I'm trying to make. In the end of the day you are taking a pay cut with this. With a one way 1h commute and 8h of work it's a 20% pay cut. I'm not surprised that smart people treat it accordingly.
abduhl 3y ago
Careful with this kind of demand. It’s possible that companies may pay the office workers their increased rate simply by reducing pay to remote workers.
- jupp0r 3y ago
  If they think that this is good allocation of their resources, why shouldn't they? (rhetorical question, it's because remote workers are not 2h of commute time per day less productive).
- fmajid 3y ago
  They will do that anyway, by offshoring fully remote jobs. There will be a minority of very high-level experts who will be able to dictate their terms, as indeed happened even before Covid, but the vast majority will not.
- somsak2 3y ago
  i don't think I'd mind that actually. I'd happily take a slight pay cut to be able to stay home
  - abduhl 3y ago
    Who said anything about slight? Assume your average commute is 1 hour each way. According to most HN users, the average dev can’t do more than 3-4 hours of “intense focus” work per day. Instead of paying you for “10” hours of being in the office and commuting to, I’d pay you for 3-4 hours of “intense focused” work. That’s 50%, being generous.
    - somsak2 3y ago
      what an insane standard. it's easy to find sources for an average commute [0], your assumption is more than double the total of <1h both ways. and as far as I know nobody has ever paid by hours of "intense focus," not sure how that's at all relevant to this conversation. we're really talking about 1h of an 8h workday, so about 11-13% depending on your denominator. not trivial but something I'd happily do. 0 https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistics/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistic...
ornornor 3y ago
I once worked some place where my manager loved to tell this allegedly true story (happened before my tour) as a hilarious joke to onboard new devs on how to fill the timesheet: There was this IC who was working on cross departmental stuff. Things like pipelines, UI component libraries, build tools, etc. He would frequently go on walks to think, either during the work day and return to the office or to go back home and work some more. At this amazing place, we had extensive timesheets to fill in (with 15 min granularity, was great). That guy used to count his walks as work time on specific projects (15–30 min walks.) The joke is that management came down hard in him because you can’t get paid to walk as you’re paid to be writing code. Thinking about code for the company isn’t a paid activity unless it happens in the office. What a sucker this guy was, asking to be paid for taking a walk harharhar! My colleagues then added (after the manager left the room) that as a result the guy in question took much longer “walks” to think things through in an empty conference room every day instead. Nobody saw the stupidity in that and he left shortly after this new policy was enforced. This was the single most toxic worst company I’ve ever worked at. My point is that employers still think that butt not in seat = not working, and since I’m paying you I can make you suffer and I own you for that duration. My job sucks and I can’t work remote so why should I allow you, puny peasant, to have it better than me when you didn’t “work” or “deserve” it?
- theshrike79 3y ago
  > employers still think that butt not in seat = not working This is a huge red flag for companies. Currently I can just go for a 15-30 minute walk with my dog if I get stuck and still count it as work time. If I'm at the office I can go grab some snacks and go sit on the break area sofas and watch some crap on my phone - still working. It's actually been scientifically proven that a change of environment brings more creativity and makes problem-solving easier. --- At a company I worked years ago we had "work reatreats" where we booked a conference room from a random hotel or office for a day. Breakfast and afternoon tea was catered. Everyone had to pick a few tasks they thought they could finish during the day, we turned off all communication devices and started working roughly on a Pomodoro system monitored by one person. No talking allowed unless we were on a break, where we all got up and left the room for a while. Pretty much everyone was finished with all their tasks before our lunch break. We did this multiple times. It's amazing how much work you can get done when you're in a novel environment with the knowledge that you will have zero distractions for the next 8 hours. Nobody can just pop in for a "quick question" or ping you on any communication tool.
dclowd9901 3y ago
Logistically, how does this work? Do employees need to install trackers on their phones to catalog hours? Not saying it wouldn’t be ideal to have that segment of the day paid for, but I’m just trying to get my head around how the tightwad money folk deal with such a nebulous target.
- jupp0r 3y ago
  Google Maps directions from home to office printed out and emailed to payroll.
  - somsak2 3y ago
    would be much easier for hr to just use the address you already have to provide them when getting onboarded and then use an API to get commute times
- suprjami 3y ago
  Leave home at the start time, such as 9am. The rest is the outside world and not up to you. Maybe one day traffic will be bad or trains will be late or whatever the commute variability is. That's the employer's risk to incur by forcing office attendance. Leave at the most reasonable time you are likely to arrive home by finish time, such as 5pm.
enigma20 3y ago
Someone asked that in my company. Answer was: you signed the contract in the past, before the covid, and you were coming to the office, and the commute time was included in the compensation. So there will be no increases. I guess you could use this card when applying for new job. But honestly, I would rather stay home and earn lesser than agree to coming to the office for additional hourly pay, covering commute time.

by jupp0r 3y ago

deathanatos 3y ago

I agree with you 100%, they should, but companies would look at you like you're demanding an absolutely bonkers amount of money. (They'd much rather the employees come back for free! And they'll complain about the higher than expected attrition the whole way…)

jupp0r 3y ago
I agree with you that it's not realistic, but you understand the point I'm trying to make. In the end of the day you are taking a pay cut with this. With a one way 1h commute and 8h of work it's a 20% pay cut. I'm not surprised that smart people treat it accordingly.

abduhl 3y ago

Careful with this kind of demand. It’s possible that companies may pay the office workers their increased rate simply by reducing pay to remote workers.

jupp0r 3y ago
If they think that this is good allocation of their resources, why shouldn't they? (rhetorical question, it's because remote workers are not 2h of commute time per day less productive).
fmajid 3y ago
They will do that anyway, by offshoring fully remote jobs. There will be a minority of very high-level experts who will be able to dictate their terms, as indeed happened even before Covid, but the vast majority will not.
somsak2 3y ago
i don't think I'd mind that actually. I'd happily take a slight pay cut to be able to stay home
- abduhl 3y ago
  Who said anything about slight? Assume your average commute is 1 hour each way. According to most HN users, the average dev can’t do more than 3-4 hours of “intense focus” work per day. Instead of paying you for “10” hours of being in the office and commuting to, I’d pay you for 3-4 hours of “intense focused” work. That’s 50%, being generous.
  - somsak2 3y ago
    what an insane standard. it's easy to find sources for an average commute [0], your assumption is more than double the total of <1h both ways. and as far as I know nobody has ever paid by hours of "intense focus," not sure how that's at all relevant to this conversation. we're really talking about 1h of an 8h workday, so about 11-13% depending on your denominator. not trivial but something I'd happily do. 0 https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistics/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistic...

ornornor 3y ago

I once worked some place where my manager loved to tell this allegedly true story (happened before my tour) as a hilarious joke to onboard new devs on how to fill the timesheet: There was this IC who was working on cross departmental stuff. Things like pipelines, UI component libraries, build tools, etc. He would frequently go on walks to think, either during the work day and return to the office or to go back home and work some more. At this amazing place, we had extensive timesheets to fill in (with 15 min granularity, was great). That guy used to count his walks as work time on specific projects (15–30 min walks.) The joke is that management came down hard in him because you can’t get paid to walk as you’re paid to be writing code. Thinking about code for the company isn’t a paid activity unless it happens in the office. What a sucker this guy was, asking to be paid for taking a walk harharhar! My colleagues then added (after the manager left the room) that as a result the guy in question took much longer “walks” to think things through in an empty conference room every day instead. Nobody saw the stupidity in that and he left shortly after this new policy was enforced. This was the single most toxic worst company I’ve ever worked at. My point is that employers still think that butt not in seat = not working, and since I’m paying you I can make you suffer and I own you for that duration. My job sucks and I can’t work remote so why should I allow you, puny peasant, to have it better than me when you didn’t “work” or “deserve” it?

theshrike79 3y ago
> employers still think that butt not in seat = not working This is a huge red flag for companies. Currently I can just go for a 15-30 minute walk with my dog if I get stuck and still count it as work time. If I'm at the office I can go grab some snacks and go sit on the break area sofas and watch some crap on my phone - still working. It's actually been scientifically proven that a change of environment brings more creativity and makes problem-solving easier. --- At a company I worked years ago we had "work reatreats" where we booked a conference room from a random hotel or office for a day. Breakfast and afternoon tea was catered. Everyone had to pick a few tasks they thought they could finish during the day, we turned off all communication devices and started working roughly on a Pomodoro system monitored by one person. No talking allowed unless we were on a break, where we all got up and left the room for a while. Pretty much everyone was finished with all their tasks before our lunch break. We did this multiple times. It's amazing how much work you can get done when you're in a novel environment with the knowledge that you will have zero distractions for the next 8 hours. Nobody can just pop in for a "quick question" or ping you on any communication tool.

dclowd9901 3y ago

Logistically, how does this work? Do employees need to install trackers on their phones to catalog hours? Not saying it wouldn’t be ideal to have that segment of the day paid for, but I’m just trying to get my head around how the tightwad money folk deal with such a nebulous target.

jupp0r 3y ago
Google Maps directions from home to office printed out and emailed to payroll.
- somsak2 3y ago
  would be much easier for hr to just use the address you already have to provide them when getting onboarded and then use an API to get commute times
suprjami 3y ago
Leave home at the start time, such as 9am. The rest is the outside world and not up to you. Maybe one day traffic will be bad or trains will be late or whatever the commute variability is. That's the employer's risk to incur by forcing office attendance. Leave at the most reasonable time you are likely to arrive home by finish time, such as 5pm.

enigma20 3y ago

Someone asked that in my company. Answer was: you signed the contract in the past, before the covid, and you were coming to the office, and the commute time was included in the compensation. So there will be no increases. I guess you could use this card when applying for new job. But honestly, I would rather stay home and earn lesser than agree to coming to the office for additional hourly pay, covering commute time.