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It's crazy, because Apple already maintains a backdoor in the e2ee crypto of iMessage which permits them to read all iMessages and attachments and scan them ser
by sneak 3y ago
It's crazy, because Apple already maintains a backdoor in the e2ee crypto of iMessage which permits them to read all iMessages and attachments and scan them serverside for CSAM (if they desire).
iMessage endpoint sync keys (for "Messages in iCloud") are backed up in the non-e2ee iCloud Backup (on by default), allowing Apple to use those sync keys from the backup to decrypt iMessages and attachments in realtime.
Note that enabling e2ee iCloud Backups (a new feature) on your device won't close this hole as the conversation partner for each iMessage is also escrowing keys.
I assume this is just brand marketing for Apple.
- altano 3y ago"Advanced Data Protection" is an optional feature you can enable for iCloud that makes that not true. See the table at https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 and note that iCloud Backup (including device and Messages backup) stores the keys on your trusted devices only when Advanced Data Protection is enabled: "Advanced Data Protection: iCloud Backup and everything inside it is end-to-end encrypted, including the Messages in iCloud encryption key." These sorts of laws make Apple not able to support Advanced Data Protection in jurisdictions that pass them.
- lrvick 3y agoExcept Apple can remotely execute any code they want on your phone at any time. That is how proprietary software works. If Apple is ordered to ask a given device to return all keys in plain text, it can. So can any Apple employees also on payroll for state actors.
- sunshinerag 3y agoYep same for Google/android and Microsoft devices
- lapcat 3y ago> Except Apple can remotely execute any code they want on your phone at any time. That is how proprietary software works. No, that's not how any code works, proprietary or open source. I've written proprietary software for 16 years, and none of it could remotely execute any code that I want.
- idle_zealot 3y agoTheir OS may give them that capability, or it may not. There is no way to know.
- lapcat 3y agoThere actually is a way to know. People can and do reverse engineer the code on device. I've done it myself many times. I would also note that unless you compile an open source project yourself, there's no guarantee that the compiled product you download from an open source project actually came from the publicly available source. If you want to get all conspiratorial, I suggest that you're not conspiratorial enough. ;-)
- smoldesu 3y agoIf Apple is somehow dumb enough to leave an unscrubbed/unfuzzed backdoor in their shipping version of iOS, I'd almost be inclined to call it a red herring. It stands a reasonably safe assumption that Apple has been compelled to add obfuscated adversarial code to iOS, just as you can assume BitLocker is about as secure as a Masterlock made out of Swiss Cheese.
- lapcat 3y agoNo, it's not a safe assumption, and it's not clear that you even know what you're talking about, technically. You use terms like "unscrubbed", "unfuzzed", "obfuscated", but what do you think they mean exactly? For example, how does "unfuzzed" relate, if at all, to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzing
- smoldesu 3y agoI think the core conclusion is perfectly sound. Apple is a capable company - they would not let the user discover malicious code unless they wanted you to find it. They intend for people to reverse-engineer their systems and run it through IDA, Ghidra and Cutter. Tools exist to mitigate that discoverability, and I think it's foolish to assume they don't use them. The only safe assumption seems to be that they are hiding something. Proving the contrary requires tools we may never have.
- sneak 3y agoNo, please see my third paragraph. Your conversation partners are still escrowing their endpoint keys, allowing Apple to continue reading your iMessages. Approximately nobody has this on because it's not default, so even if you enable it, ~100% of your iMessages are still readable by Apple (and by extension FBI/DHS without a warrant).
- olliej 3y agoThis is only the case if you’re using iCloud backup for your phone, although yes that’s kind of annoying - presumably this is a usability issue and there use. Happily there’s now advanced data protection option - though you the docs go into great detail on the “if you forget everything all your data is gone forever” usability problem.
- aaomidi 3y agoApple has done a good job balancing security and usability here. I can see e2ee being default/recommended for people with iCloud family accounts though as every family member can be part of the account recovery process.
- galad87 3y agoActually most people are stuck on the free 5GB iCloud plan, and the backup will never complete because there isn't enough space.