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I think that is the wrong way to think of it. Remote work has a short-term advantage in that your workers will be more productive (according to the author) so

I think that is the wrong way to think of it. Remote work has a short-term advantage in that your workers will be more productive (according to the author) so you'll get more done, and also it is a nice perk to offer recruits. That sounds like a no-brainer for startups who are thinking about an exit that is a few years away. They don't have to worry as much about attrition, hiring is more focused on senior eng (in my experience), and given the relatively lower cash comp they are trying to find cheap perks. For the BigCos of the world though, it is different. They have an established business that is probably profitable and they need to cycle in junior engineers and train them to make up for retiring/leaving senior engineers. For them, mentoring is more important than IC productivity. None of this is to say that the author is wrong, because they are arguing that you can have the best of both worlds by adopting a hybrid mentoring model that they are selling.

dv_dt 3y ago
I think it an unsupported assertion that mentoring is not possible in remote environments. The mentoring process does work better when its intentional and remote may need a change in the process of mentoring vs in-office. But the can’t do it is an assertion convenient to the return to office chaff.
- WheatMillington 3y ago
  I cannot imagine how miserable it must be to be a junior being remotely mentored.
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    Why? Periodic meetups, discussion, pair programming, and a slack channel or other RT channel with an open invite to ping. What is missing? And actually in well documented places with pointers to sandbox environments (which remote tends to force better docs for both), it's great to let the juniors play and ask questions on missing and poorly documented items - reproducibility and learning is improved. And I've worked too many in-person places where mentoring is random, unplanned and ineffective because of it.
  - hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
    It's not the first time hear this view and I still don't understand it. In my mind this would only make sense in a scenario where the junior is a motivated hard working person and the mentor, working from home, is someone who doesn't give a shit. But the root cause here isn't the wfh.
    - creakingstairs 3y ago
      I know it’s just anecdotal but I really do think mentoring is usually better offline. It doesn’t mean it can’t be done well remotely. But there are way more hurdles in the way. One of the perks being in the same space is that it is much easier to clear up misunderstandings. Things like body language, facial expressions really do play a huge part in our communication. Especially if people are from different cultures. Also, a lot of juniors are already nervous when they start so having people with friendly body language around helps. Being in the same space and doing shared activities also helps people gel together. Looking back at my days as a junior and as buddies later, I just don’t think zoom meetings are equal to shared activities like morning coffees and occasional table tennis to blow off steam. I don’t think I would have gotten along with some people if it weren’t for shared experiences in the office. All this being said, I really do love wfh though. So I often think about how we could get the best of both worlds.
  - anthony_d 3y ago
    Before giving my anecdotal response I want to say I’m well into the senior end of the spectrum. Maybe that disqualifies me but maybe it doesn’t. Anyway, my previous company was about 100 people and purely remote. I had a brilliant manager who taught me a lot. We did pair sessions and worked through stuff together via Zoom or Google (really can’t remember what video chat we used). Remote was never a problem. Now I work at a company of about 200k and I’m in the office most of the time. Every single one of my brain cells is atrophying. I haven’t learned anything in the 18 months I’ve been here.
    - dent9876543 3y ago
      Maybe the point of hiring you was not for you to learn, but for you to teach.
  - fmajid 3y ago
    You don't have to imagine. The overwhelming feedback from schools and universities is that remote learning sucks. It would take a leap of faith to imagine workers are any different because they have an employment contract.
    - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
      If you are set up for remote learning it's fine. Royal Holloway has been running a remote MSc in Info Sec for nearly 20 years. The tutors said we were more motivated, and ironically, more social than the on-campus students. If you are forced to suddenly teach everyone remotely due to a global pandemic, it probably won't work as well...
  - stutzbearcat 3y ago
    As somebody who got trained, finished an internship with an offer and promoted as a software engineer during the pandemic it worked great for me. My company didn’t do anything differently to help people starting out as sdes and it still worked. Of course every person us different so some will find the in person easier but I think most could make it work remotely. Especially if a company invests in helping to make it work.
- flappyeagle 3y ago
  Learning in person is more effective than remote for most people. Schools tried this during 2020-2021. It sucked.
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
    Schools are one-sided and 1 teacher teaches to a class of 20. The teacher talks, the others listen. Mentoring is usually 1 on 2, or one to 2/3, the mentor alters the session based on what happens and listen to your feedback. Also, the mentor is open to feedback to improve their mentoring session. And you can ask for a break if you are tired or need more time. My opinion is that the two are not really comparable
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    Can one really separate the effects of mass covid with no vaccines, sick and dying parents & siblings, short planning, economic stresses, underfunded tech transition budgets in schools from remote learning?
lapcat 3y ago
I'm curious how much mentoring junior engineers actually need? Maybe it's because I'm a self-taught self-starter, but I've worked from home for all except one year of my 17 year career, and I've managed to be successful despite never receiving any "mentoring". I've had co-workers, of course, and co-workers help each other when necessary, but we were basically equals.
- flappyeagle 3y ago
  Random question. Are you an only child? Firstborn?
  - lapcat 3y ago
    Firstborn. Should I put that on my résumé? ;-)
    - fmajid 3y ago
      Jung's theory of birth order is about as scientific as the rest of his crackpot beliefs, and psychoanalysis in general.
      - danaris 3y ago
        Jung isn't the only one who has theorized about birth order making a difference in development.
- Incipient 3y ago
  One of the major advantages of mentoring for us "self taught" type is to get a second opinion and weed out bad habits. I can successfully write functional code, but having a colleague from a different background helped me enormously with how I worked and what I did. Also for a lot of companies hiring the "average" worker, who typically don't write code in their spare time on weekends, graduates need a lot more help to get up to speed.
  - 3y ago
polynomial 3y ago
Remote work is the future* with smart contract activated payouts based on task completion, initially via oracles, but eventually fully on chain, as economic activity grows there, and task workers can complete their contracts to successful payout by being that oracle, in terms of what they see, but everything they do will be on chain. *some would have

dv_dt 3y ago

I think it an unsupported assertion that mentoring is not possible in remote environments. The mentoring process does work better when its intentional and remote may need a change in the process of mentoring vs in-office. But the can’t do it is an assertion convenient to the return to office chaff.

WheatMillington 3y ago
I cannot imagine how miserable it must be to be a junior being remotely mentored.
- dv_dt 3y ago
  Why? Periodic meetups, discussion, pair programming, and a slack channel or other RT channel with an open invite to ping. What is missing? And actually in well documented places with pointers to sandbox environments (which remote tends to force better docs for both), it's great to let the juniors play and ask questions on missing and poorly documented items - reproducibility and learning is improved. And I've worked too many in-person places where mentoring is random, unplanned and ineffective because of it.
- hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
  It's not the first time hear this view and I still don't understand it. In my mind this would only make sense in a scenario where the junior is a motivated hard working person and the mentor, working from home, is someone who doesn't give a shit. But the root cause here isn't the wfh.
  - creakingstairs 3y ago
    I know it’s just anecdotal but I really do think mentoring is usually better offline. It doesn’t mean it can’t be done well remotely. But there are way more hurdles in the way. One of the perks being in the same space is that it is much easier to clear up misunderstandings. Things like body language, facial expressions really do play a huge part in our communication. Especially if people are from different cultures. Also, a lot of juniors are already nervous when they start so having people with friendly body language around helps. Being in the same space and doing shared activities also helps people gel together. Looking back at my days as a junior and as buddies later, I just don’t think zoom meetings are equal to shared activities like morning coffees and occasional table tennis to blow off steam. I don’t think I would have gotten along with some people if it weren’t for shared experiences in the office. All this being said, I really do love wfh though. So I often think about how we could get the best of both worlds.
- anthony_d 3y ago
  Before giving my anecdotal response I want to say I’m well into the senior end of the spectrum. Maybe that disqualifies me but maybe it doesn’t. Anyway, my previous company was about 100 people and purely remote. I had a brilliant manager who taught me a lot. We did pair sessions and worked through stuff together via Zoom or Google (really can’t remember what video chat we used). Remote was never a problem. Now I work at a company of about 200k and I’m in the office most of the time. Every single one of my brain cells is atrophying. I haven’t learned anything in the 18 months I’ve been here.
  - dent9876543 3y ago
    Maybe the point of hiring you was not for you to learn, but for you to teach.
- fmajid 3y ago
  You don't have to imagine. The overwhelming feedback from schools and universities is that remote learning sucks. It would take a leap of faith to imagine workers are any different because they have an employment contract.
  - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
    If you are set up for remote learning it's fine. Royal Holloway has been running a remote MSc in Info Sec for nearly 20 years. The tutors said we were more motivated, and ironically, more social than the on-campus students. If you are forced to suddenly teach everyone remotely due to a global pandemic, it probably won't work as well...
- stutzbearcat 3y ago
  As somebody who got trained, finished an internship with an offer and promoted as a software engineer during the pandemic it worked great for me. My company didn’t do anything differently to help people starting out as sdes and it still worked. Of course every person us different so some will find the in person easier but I think most could make it work remotely. Especially if a company invests in helping to make it work.
flappyeagle 3y ago
Learning in person is more effective than remote for most people. Schools tried this during 2020-2021. It sucked.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
  Schools are one-sided and 1 teacher teaches to a class of 20. The teacher talks, the others listen. Mentoring is usually 1 on 2, or one to 2/3, the mentor alters the session based on what happens and listen to your feedback. Also, the mentor is open to feedback to improve their mentoring session. And you can ask for a break if you are tired or need more time. My opinion is that the two are not really comparable
- dv_dt 3y ago
  Can one really separate the effects of mass covid with no vaccines, sick and dying parents & siblings, short planning, economic stresses, underfunded tech transition budgets in schools from remote learning?

lapcat 3y ago

I'm curious how much mentoring junior engineers actually need? Maybe it's because I'm a self-taught self-starter, but I've worked from home for all except one year of my 17 year career, and I've managed to be successful despite never receiving any "mentoring". I've had co-workers, of course, and co-workers help each other when necessary, but we were basically equals.

flappyeagle 3y ago
Random question. Are you an only child? Firstborn?
- lapcat 3y ago
  Firstborn. Should I put that on my résumé? ;-)
  - fmajid 3y ago
    Jung's theory of birth order is about as scientific as the rest of his crackpot beliefs, and psychoanalysis in general.
    - danaris 3y ago
      Jung isn't the only one who has theorized about birth order making a difference in development.
Incipient 3y ago
One of the major advantages of mentoring for us "self taught" type is to get a second opinion and weed out bad habits. I can successfully write functional code, but having a colleague from a different background helped me enormously with how I worked and what I did. Also for a lot of companies hiring the "average" worker, who typically don't write code in their spare time on weekends, graduates need a lot more help to get up to speed.
- 3y ago

polynomial 3y ago

Remote work is the future* with smart contract activated payouts based on task completion, initially via oracles, but eventually fully on chain, as economic activity grows there, and task workers can complete their contracts to successful payout by being that oracle, in terms of what they see, but everything they do will be on chain. *some would have