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In my circles, dealers would always be the absolute last resort option for having any maintenance done due to their reputation of inflating prices and doing cra

In my circles, dealers would always be the absolute last resort option for having any maintenance done due to their reputation of inflating prices and doing crappy work. Not sure if EV manufacturers are attempting to force consumers to have all their work done by dealers. If so, I’ll keep waiting.

londons_explore 3y ago
Dealers typically get a monopoly on software fixes/firmware updates. In EV's, more and more issues will be fixed by reconfiguring/patching software. I would guess that over time, car software will get more and more locked down - even today, real cryptography is typically used to stop you flashing new firmware onto your ECU. Those checks are only going to get tighter. There are no opensource ECU's. Therefore, I don't see the dealer going anywhere. But they might get rid of the workshop and replace it with desks of people able to hit buttons on a computer...
- asynchronous 3y ago
  The funny thing is there’s nothing inherently more digital about an EV that requires over the air updates. Tesla just simply proved out that the model works so all EV makers have been following suit.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    Over the air updates pay for themselves immediately if there is a recall that can be fixed with software. And thats ignoring any other possible benefits for the user, like upgraded features or bugfixes post-sale.
sokoloff 3y ago
I’ve had a Nissan LEAF for 8.5 years. Everything the Nissan dealer has done has been free (service bulletins and a warranty repair [maybe a second for airbag, I forget). Everything else has been an easy DIY, meaning a corner/independent mechanic could have done it just as easily.
kmeisthax 3y ago
So, part of the reason why EVs have struggled to gain a market is specifically because the dealers can't make as much money on the maintenance side. All the stuff about "range anxiety" and "charging infrastructure" was a sideshow. You already have a garage that can deliver 120VAC at 15A to your car and that is enough charging infrastructure for everything but road trips. Dealers wanted to sell cars with Sony timers[0] in them, and internal combustion means a lot of metal parts and tiny explosions that can go wear out and go wrong. EVs do not have those kinds of problems. Tesla doesn't have dealers, but they've been the vanguard of bringing Apple-style "serialized for your safety[1]" parts to the automotive market. Almost every part is paired or calibrated to the ECU and the car won't start or won't run well without their proprietary software and signing key involved. And since Musk embarrassed the rest of the car industry into making EVs, they're copying everything about Tesla, including the bad bits[2]. As a result, repair-hostile design is ubiquitous in EVs. Actually, I've heard it might be back-contaminating ICE cars, too - you might just never buy a new vehicle ever again at this rate. [0] Japanese urban legend / slang term for "thing in an electronic device designed to break when the warranty ends" [1] against unauthorized repair shops [2] Most established firms tend to be vertically disintegrated channel traders - i.e. they buy other people's components, put it together, and sell it on as a finished product. Any major product change is a process of herding cats, dogs, and guinea pigs all to the same spot and hoping they don't harm each other in the process. This results in an extremely conservative design discipline. For example: - GM tried selling electric vehicles in the 90s and shitcanned them because dealers weren't going to sell them. - PC vendors weren't going to bother selling laptops with SSDs in them until people started switching to Apple because "it's so fast because it boots in like 5 seconds." Of course, once a Tesla or an Apple changes market expectations, then it's easy to copy them, because they've already de-risked the project.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  > - GM tried selling electric vehicles in the 90s and shitcanned them because dealers weren't going to sell them. Wrong. It was because GM was not making any money on any of the small cars and all the technology stuff.
- commandar 3y ago
themagician 3y ago
In my experience, both EVs and (many/most) smaller volume high efficiency vehicles are not easy for 3rd parties to do service on. An inline-6/V6/V8 is relatively straightforward and there are great 3rd party mechanics everywhere. Going to a dealer for these kinds of vehicles is just asking to get ripped off. When you get into EVs, or even complex fuel efficient 4-cylinders, the complexity and proprietary nature of many parts makes independent service difficult, specialized, and expensive. With something like a Prius, you have such wide adoption that everyone knows how to work on them. When you have something like a Tesla, let alone a lesser known EV, independent shops can burn a dozen hours just getting up to speed on the car. And they literally may not be able to get the part, either because of some rights/IP/vendor lock in or because the part just stopped being made. In some ways, the cars made from 1980 to 2010 are the easiest to service. You've got a lot of simple engine designs. Well understood, high parts availability. Not a lot of screens or software that isn't 100% critical for car functionality. I don't think you are going to see too many cars made today that are still running in 10-20 years honestly. Even with the greater increase in overall reliability for electric cars, the failures are often catastrophic or nearly so because everything is so integrated. It's like a MacBook Pro—almost any failure is going to run you at least 1/3rd the value of the machine. I have some bias based on my age, but I feel like the most reliable cars were the well built vehicles in the late 90s, early 2000s. Hondas, Toyotas, the Crown Vic, and various other Ford trucks. The "simple" V6/V8 BMWs and Mercedes from this era were also incredibly well/over engineered. I don't see anyone making EVs today even attempting to do something like that anymore.
- stcroixx 3y ago
  My vehicles are an '03, '04 and '68 bronco and I really couldn't be happier with them. Maintenance is simple and if I'm too busy to do something myself, I can get it done almost anywhere for pretty cheap. I'm not going to start being some dealer/mfrs bitch until I have literally no other options, which is likely to be never in my lifetime.

londons_explore 3y ago

Dealers typically get a monopoly on software fixes/firmware updates. In EV's, more and more issues will be fixed by reconfiguring/patching software. I would guess that over time, car software will get more and more locked down - even today, real cryptography is typically used to stop you flashing new firmware onto your ECU. Those checks are only going to get tighter. There are no opensource ECU's. Therefore, I don't see the dealer going anywhere. But they might get rid of the workshop and replace it with desks of people able to hit buttons on a computer...

asynchronous 3y ago
The funny thing is there’s nothing inherently more digital about an EV that requires over the air updates. Tesla just simply proved out that the model works so all EV makers have been following suit.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  Over the air updates pay for themselves immediately if there is a recall that can be fixed with software. And thats ignoring any other possible benefits for the user, like upgraded features or bugfixes post-sale.

sokoloff 3y ago

I’ve had a Nissan LEAF for 8.5 years. Everything the Nissan dealer has done has been free (service bulletins and a warranty repair [maybe a second for airbag, I forget). Everything else has been an easy DIY, meaning a corner/independent mechanic could have done it just as easily.

kmeisthax 3y ago

So, part of the reason why EVs have struggled to gain a market is specifically because the dealers can't make as much money on the maintenance side. All the stuff about "range anxiety" and "charging infrastructure" was a sideshow. You already have a garage that can deliver 120VAC at 15A to your car and that is enough charging infrastructure for everything but road trips. Dealers wanted to sell cars with Sony timers[0] in them, and internal combustion means a lot of metal parts and tiny explosions that can go wear out and go wrong. EVs do not have those kinds of problems. Tesla doesn't have dealers, but they've been the vanguard of bringing Apple-style "serialized for your safety[1]" parts to the automotive market. Almost every part is paired or calibrated to the ECU and the car won't start or won't run well without their proprietary software and signing key involved. And since Musk embarrassed the rest of the car industry into making EVs, they're copying everything about Tesla, including the bad bits[2]. As a result, repair-hostile design is ubiquitous in EVs. Actually, I've heard it might be back-contaminating ICE cars, too - you might just never buy a new vehicle ever again at this rate. [0] Japanese urban legend / slang term for "thing in an electronic device designed to break when the warranty ends" [1] against unauthorized repair shops [2] Most established firms tend to be vertically disintegrated channel traders - i.e. they buy other people's components, put it together, and sell it on as a finished product. Any major product change is a process of herding cats, dogs, and guinea pigs all to the same spot and hoping they don't harm each other in the process. This results in an extremely conservative design discipline. For example: - GM tried selling electric vehicles in the 90s and shitcanned them because dealers weren't going to sell them. - PC vendors weren't going to bother selling laptops with SSDs in them until people started switching to Apple because "it's so fast because it boots in like 5 seconds." Of course, once a Tesla or an Apple changes market expectations, then it's easy to copy them, because they've already de-risked the project.

panick21_ 3y ago
> - GM tried selling electric vehicles in the 90s and shitcanned them because dealers weren't going to sell them. Wrong. It was because GM was not making any money on any of the small cars and all the technology stuff.
commandar 3y ago

themagician 3y ago

In my experience, both EVs and (many/most) smaller volume high efficiency vehicles are not easy for 3rd parties to do service on. An inline-6/V6/V8 is relatively straightforward and there are great 3rd party mechanics everywhere. Going to a dealer for these kinds of vehicles is just asking to get ripped off. When you get into EVs, or even complex fuel efficient 4-cylinders, the complexity and proprietary nature of many parts makes independent service difficult, specialized, and expensive. With something like a Prius, you have such wide adoption that everyone knows how to work on them. When you have something like a Tesla, let alone a lesser known EV, independent shops can burn a dozen hours just getting up to speed on the car. And they literally may not be able to get the part, either because of some rights/IP/vendor lock in or because the part just stopped being made. In some ways, the cars made from 1980 to 2010 are the easiest to service. You've got a lot of simple engine designs. Well understood, high parts availability. Not a lot of screens or software that isn't 100% critical for car functionality. I don't think you are going to see too many cars made today that are still running in 10-20 years honestly. Even with the greater increase in overall reliability for electric cars, the failures are often catastrophic or nearly so because everything is so integrated. It's like a MacBook Pro—almost any failure is going to run you at least 1/3rd the value of the machine. I have some bias based on my age, but I feel like the most reliable cars were the well built vehicles in the late 90s, early 2000s. Hondas, Toyotas, the Crown Vic, and various other Ford trucks. The "simple" V6/V8 BMWs and Mercedes from this era were also incredibly well/over engineered. I don't see anyone making EVs today even attempting to do something like that anymore.

stcroixx 3y ago
My vehicles are an '03, '04 and '68 bronco and I really couldn't be happier with them. Maintenance is simple and if I'm too busy to do something myself, I can get it done almost anywhere for pretty cheap. I'm not going to start being some dealer/mfrs bitch until I have literally no other options, which is likely to be never in my lifetime.