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Yep. They were trying to compensate for different feel/behavior to the pilots without additional training. I really don't see how that was approved by a compete

Yep. They were trying to compensate for different feel/behavior to the pilots without additional training. I really don't see how that was approved by a competent agency... Ended up in those two horrible crashes in perfectly good airplanes.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> don't see how that was approved by a competent agency The version that flies in America has two AoA sensors. To my knowledge, those planes didn't have a problem.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Don't forget a lot of countries rely on the FAA for guidance because they don't all have the resources or manufacturer access to thoroughly evaluate an aircraft themselves. Also, even with two AoA sensors the pilot had to switch to the alternate because the MCAS wouldn't know which one was right. This is why usually 3 sensors are used in redundant systems.
MilStdJunkie 3y ago
Because when you're a DER (Designated Engineering Representative), you're still getting your paycheck from Boeing, and being a fussy DER is not a fast track to success. I can't lay down too much more specifics, but anecdotally, that's how things go, and not just at Boeing either. Seen it at a lot of suppliers too. You're a "good" DER, or you're on the short list next round of layoffs[1]. DERs have been getting more and more sign off authority on increasingly critical core airworthiness systems, stuff no one would have dreamed of delegating to a DER twenty years ago. The actual full time agency people, well, depends on how much they're fishing for a corner office. But by and large, they were hardasses, thank God. All three of them. Particularly the EUROCAE Dutch guys. Whew! But none of this is important as the Boeing culture, which . . ehhhhhhyyyyuuuuuchhh . . could use some improvements. To phrase it one way. [1] There's always layoffs, good times and bad, because everything is funded contract to contract, week to week. I had a goddamn amazing analog engineer get pink slipped, packed his stuff, and then - after all that - he got called back before he got his boxes in the car. "Whoops! We didn't mean it! Turns out no one else in the universe knows how to do this!". Luckily, he was a canny old gent, and responded with a well-deserved, "Sure. I'll come back in. But it's gonna cost ya".
- mechhacker 3y ago
  I saw bits and pieces of this interacting with DERs when I was working in the field, and you're touching on what I saw first hand. Thankfully I wasn't working on anything related to the MAX.
someweirdperson 3y ago
I think regulations refering to a competent agency doesn't require any competency in the normal sense of the word. And perfectly good those planes were not, they had broken AoA sensors.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> don't see how that was approved by a competent agency The version that flies in America has two AoA sensors. To my knowledge, those planes didn't have a problem.

wkat4242 3y ago
Don't forget a lot of countries rely on the FAA for guidance because they don't all have the resources or manufacturer access to thoroughly evaluate an aircraft themselves. Also, even with two AoA sensors the pilot had to switch to the alternate because the MCAS wouldn't know which one was right. This is why usually 3 sensors are used in redundant systems.

MilStdJunkie 3y ago

Because when you're a DER (Designated Engineering Representative), you're still getting your paycheck from Boeing, and being a fussy DER is not a fast track to success. I can't lay down too much more specifics, but anecdotally, that's how things go, and not just at Boeing either. Seen it at a lot of suppliers too. You're a "good" DER, or you're on the short list next round of layoffs[1]. DERs have been getting more and more sign off authority on increasingly critical core airworthiness systems, stuff no one would have dreamed of delegating to a DER twenty years ago. The actual full time agency people, well, depends on how much they're fishing for a corner office. But by and large, they were hardasses, thank God. All three of them. Particularly the EUROCAE Dutch guys. Whew! But none of this is important as the Boeing culture, which . . ehhhhhhyyyyuuuuuchhh . . could use some improvements. To phrase it one way. [1] There's always layoffs, good times and bad, because everything is funded contract to contract, week to week. I had a goddamn amazing analog engineer get pink slipped, packed his stuff, and then - after all that - he got called back before he got his boxes in the car. "Whoops! We didn't mean it! Turns out no one else in the universe knows how to do this!". Luckily, he was a canny old gent, and responded with a well-deserved, "Sure. I'll come back in. But it's gonna cost ya".

mechhacker 3y ago
I saw bits and pieces of this interacting with DERs when I was working in the field, and you're touching on what I saw first hand. Thankfully I wasn't working on anything related to the MAX.

someweirdperson 3y ago

I think regulations refering to a competent agency doesn't require any competency in the normal sense of the word. And perfectly good those planes were not, they had broken AoA sensors.